Reloading 380 Auto: Bullet Setback---HELP!

[PatC415]

My first attempt to reload for Kahr P380 has been a bit of a pain.
After several attempts with different bullets, different cases, crimp/no crimp,
I'm still having bullet setback: 1st round from mag sets bullet back about .005 each time on reloaded cases.
Just tried NEW Remington Factory ammo, no setback. BUT, Fiocchi ammo sets back about .001 on 1st feed from mag, and each subsequent try.
I crimped the crap out of the last few reloads with a Lee Factory Crimp die, bad enough to distort (ring) the bullets about .003-.004.
MOST of my brass is 1 time fired. I always use a very small flare on cases, just enough to hold the bullet.
I do not have another 380 pistol with me for comparison, so I can't eliminate the pistol as the cause.
Any thoughts from the Calguns Experts of the Interweb???

[stilly]

Bullet setback happens when the bullet is in the mag shaking back and forth typically yes?

In your case though the bullet is getting setback from the process of loading into the barrel/chamber? Did I read that right? What happens if you take that SAME round and rechamber it 5 times? Try rechambering the RP rounds the same amount and see what they do.

Could it be the length of the rounds that is causing this? Also, Factory crimp die should not be needed. I mean, the FCD was designed by Lee IIRC to correct a problem that did not really exist when things were used correctly and you can not use LEAD with the FCD or else it will apparently resize it down to j-word spec.

Is this Khar rather new? I remember selling the .380, it was cute and dinky, but damn that slide was TIGHT compared to the khar 9mm... Perhaps it needs to be broken in for another few hundred rounds?

Maybe even make a dummy round with no primer or powder and rack it slowly to see where it could be hanging up and getting pushed in.

But first, I would check the lengths of all of the rounds involved.

But what do I know, I am just a guy on the internets...

[ojisan]

Does the new Remington ammo have a cannelure on the bullet or on the case just below the bullet?
Premium ammo often has these (one or sometimes both) to prevent feeding set-back.
A little bit of set back seems normal with some guns.
But, you should be able to make good ol' round nose lead reloads work OK just as they do for everyone else without resorting to super crimping methods.

To me it sounds like your rounds are hanging up on the feed ramp, or nose-diving when leaving the mag.
Either way, the slide is hitting the case hard while the nose of the bullet is momentarily wedged against the feed ramp and not moving up.

Hopefully for the price you paid for a Kahr, the feed ramp and chamber mouth are smooth and polished so that's not the issue.

Load a mag, don't put it in the gun, check the rounds as they come up in the mag when you push them off one at a time with your fingers.
Do this a few times until you are consistent with the results you get .
Each round should pop up quickly full length to the top of the lips with the nose high.
If the rounds are sluggish coming up, or lay nose flat or down because they contacted the rear of the feed lips first, then you need to correct the follower or spring problem.

[PatC415]

Does the new Remington ammo have a cannelure on the bullet or on the case just below the bullet?
Premium ammo often has these (one or sometimes both) to prevent feeding set-back.
A little bit of set back seems normal with some guns.
But, you should be able to make good ol' round nose lead reloads work OK just as they do for everyone else without resorting to super crimping methods.
Hopefully for the price you paid for a Kahr, the feed ramp and chamber mouth are smooth and polished so that's not the issue.

I actually just went and pulled a Remington Factory Load, no cannelure, but there is "bullet sealant" inside the case and on the base of the bullet! I've seen it in Military ammo, but this is the first time I've seen it in a pistol load. Actually, I'm not in the habit of pulling bullets on good ammo!!!
Yes, it's the newer Kahr with the highly polished feed ramp, I've had NO chambering issues.
I know that "setback" in semiauto is common, but I'm not liking the amount I'm seeing. I have not seen this in any other caliber that I load.
I've tried different OAL's, and same thing every load. I had one bullet set back .008. My concern is that under "live fire" it may be even worse. Maybe I will fire one, check one, etc., or buy bullet sealant!
Thanks for the replies. Hopefully, I will find a solution.

[stilly]

I do not think that bullet sealant is the solution here. Hmm. What about the diameters of all of the projectiles involved? Did you get a bad batch or undersized projectiles?

[PatC415]

I do not think that bullet sealant is the solution here. Hmm. What about the diameters of all of the projectiles involved? Did you get a bad batch or undersized projectiles?

No, all sized OK. I have actually taken lots of careful measurements. I have Montana Gold, Delta Precision, and an old batch or Speer, all 95g. I sized several cases without the expander, without flaring, and still came up with setback.
I even removed the bullet sealant from the NEW Remington case, installed a NEW FMJ in the unfired resized case, used a "light" crimp, and still had about .05 setback.
My next trip to the range will be testing a few of the rounds that chamber under live fire. I can live with setback if I load long. This Kahr seems to like a short OAL, so I'll have to play a bit with the length to find a happy medium.

[XxWoodsHunterxX]

What's the oal you are setting you rounds to? I have a bodyguard 380 and I had to load them short to get them to chamber but never any pressure issues or feeding issues once I adjusted oal and crimped.

[PatC415]

What's the oal you are setting you rounds to? I have a bodyguard 380 and I had to load them short to get them to chamber but never any pressure issues or feeding issues once I adjusted oal and crimped.

I went from .970 down to .940. After reading about this issue on another forum, I purchased some Montana Gold 380, which are longer and cupped, and have more contact area in the case. The setback on these is "less" than the others.
I'm wondering if I should take a couple thousands off the expander???
What OAL did you end up with?

[___M|9||___]

What are your measurements and load data if you don't mind me asking? Do you have a case gauge or are you using your barrel?

[PatC415]

What are your measurements and load data if you don't mind me asking? Do you have a case gauge or are you using your barrel?

Using the barrel, and the "plunk test".
My normal 380 load is 3.2g of HP38, 95g FMJ's, with an OAL of .970, which shoot fine in my G42, and an old Makarov.
Have not yet shot any reloads thru the KP380. I'm still trying to find out why the setback is so severe.
I made several dummy rounds, at different OAL, but ALL have setback. I don't think it's the chamber, I think it's the steep angle of the ramp because this gun is so short??
Never even thought of measuring any of the factory ammo until last night, and found "minor" setback on Fiocchi factory ammo, loaded down at .953+/-.
Any thoughts?

[stilly]

Here is what I would do. If it gives the rounds setback, okay, something to note, but if they chamber and fire and all is well, I would not care. In real life I do not rack my gun repeatedly with the same round over and over and try to reload so that there can be no setback. I do not know of anyone that does, well, I know of ONE guy now.

But in all honesty, when I was in Havasu for a CCW class the girl putting on the class showed us a bullet that her b/f chambers every day and that thing has a torn up tip and looks like hair growing out of it but it started as an FTX/ Flex tip .45 ACP.

So perhaps there is really nothing that can be done unless the springs get a tad looser or the feed ramp is polished a bit or changed to not be so steep, maybe a custom barrel, but should you need to do that for a .380? I will be honest, it is a KHAR. Nuff said. It is NOT a target pistol, it is a defensive only concealed carry pistol that might save your life one day so if you reload for it and it pushes the bullets back a little, I will cut it some slack and get some sleep at night.

OR maybe you can call up KHAR and complain sayig that it pushes the bullets back and send them photos and ask if that is proper. Some gun manufacturers do not care for you to reload for their guns (glock, Magnum Research, others) so maybe they do not care and they know that it is only a pea shooter that is to be used once in a while...

I own 3 .380 ACP firearms and that is really 3 more than I need and 2 more than I should have but damn, I just HAD to buy the off roster ones to send a middle finger to Suckramento...

[J-cat]

Skip the flaring case mouth step. Go with pure neck tension as delivered by your sizer die. If you can't get the bullet to seat that way, get a flare only die and use a minimal flare. Lee makes a real nice adjustable flare die for about $15.

[PatC415]

Here is what I would do. If it gives the rounds setback, okay, something to note, but if they chamber and fire and all is well, I would not care. In real life I do not rack my gun repeatedly with the same round over and over and try to reload so that there can be no setback.

Agreed.
They seem to feed better @ .955 or so(at least in the Kahr). My intent, is to load at this length, and live with the setback. Even if it were .010, which it isn't, on a regular basis, I would still be well within spec for minimum OAL.
I was trying hard to develop a load that worked in BOTH our pistols.
This is my wife's, and I'm TOO cheap to buy 380 factory ammo at the ridiculous prices...besides having WAY more components than I need!
Will also skip the flaring, as the bullet 380 bases seem to push into the case without much trouble, and setback seems to be lessoned by doing so.
Thanks for the replies.

[PatC415]

Skip the flaring case mouth step. Go with pure neck tension as delivered by your sizer die.

This worked well. Thanks!

[XxWoodsHunterxX]

I went from .970 down to .940. After reading about this issue on another forum, I purchased some Montana Gold 380, which are longer and cupped, and have more contact area in the case. The setback on these is "less" than the others.
I'm wondering if I should take a couple thousands off the expander???
What OAL did you end up with?

I ended with a .956+\- .003. Seems to have worked good with my reloads and my gun. Just used barrel as case gauge. I've used Montana golds in 95gr and now I use 100gr xtremes with no change in oal and they work fine.