Ctr-02

[artherd]

This is basically a really nice FAB-10/Vulcan right now, but the furthur erosion to the AR 'series' languange is nice. The goal is to expand this weapon with a non-pistol grip one day, pending DOJ approval.

Please Note:
1) Bolted-in 10-round mag.
2) CA DOJ letter on file.
3) It shoots 1/3MOA which is as well as I can hold a rifle.





Oh yes 4) I friggin love it

[bu-bye]

Whats different about it? Looks very nice.

[artherd]

Whats different about it? Looks very nice.

All billet 7075 upper and lower.
Takes a tool to detatch the magazine, but magwel is open.
With a 'thumb grip' (ie not a pistol grip) I may eventually be able to use my old 30-rounders and put the old detach-mag catch back in. Stay tuned.

[shopkeep]

Remember, thumb has to go over the stock just like they do for the Robinson M-96. And oh yeah... if you can pull it off just think... we get to show the DOJ that despite their newest ban, we can once again overcome it with sheer ingenuity!

And oh yeah... you'll put the FAB-10 outta business pretty much. Pin it in for pistol grip and then be able to rearrange for detachable mags, AWESOME!

[socalguns]

bolted pinned? Or bolted Nutted?

Thats a pricy, pricy, rifle

[bwiese]

God DAMN! Good going Ben/Artherd, good letter...

Hmmm, some interesting wording in that letter...

"... that particular make and model is not listed as an assault weapon in the list promulgated by the Department in response to the Harrot vs. County of Kings case.
.
{...snip...}
.
You should be aware, however, that the JP Rifles CTR-02 is virtually identical to rifles now listed as assault weapons by the Department and may be considered an assault weapon in the near future."

This is the first real operational acknowledgement from DOJ/AG office that you can legally acquire a non-Harrott-listed AR receiver. By extension this would apply to non-Harrott-listed AK receivers as well.

The importance of this goes quite beyond trying to make some kinda gripless AR.

"Near future"? This wording suggests possibly there's an upcoming administrative attempt to update the Harrott-inspired DOJ Roster of AR15 and AK Series Weapons. But these could also just be cautionary CYA weasel words too - or there could be some legislative stuff in committee we haven't heard of (but I doubt this latter case).

There is a dim-bright side to all of this, however:

....if AR/AK receivers that aren't declared as named/Type II AWs now (like the CTR02, a couple of other off-brand AR receivers, and some new US-made AK-style stamped receivers) get added to the list for 'functional identicality', these will become full-fledged CA AWs upon that declaration. While registration will be required after 90? days, once it's declared as an AW you can add evil features galore (detachable magwell w/pistol grip, flash hider, folder stock, etc. etc.)

I do not believe that any retroactive 'ban' would fall in place kinda like the early '90s SKS fiasco: that is, a situation where a receiver CTR02 is allowed now, but then added to DOJ Roster list - but then also not allowed to be registered as AW. I believe once a gun/receiver is added to the list and promulgated as an AW, that triggers a registration period to come into compliance (register it, surrender it, move it/sell it out of state, etc.)

I also do not know whether, in this 'update', they'd also try to clean up some other things like FAL & HK clone receivers (i.e., merging a receiver that could form a Type III gun back into Type I category). We've really just addressed Harrott issues here. Non-named, non-AR/AK receivers are still unbanned -which is why CaliFALs are allowed.

I think a 'substantially different' receiver - like the FAB10 - will not be banned or declared as an AW. The Vulcan receiver is in more questionable territory, but of course if Vulcan gets 'declared' as an AW, you can rip out the affixed mag

I will have to read more deeply on how items are declared AWs, and procedures for adding to Harrott list.

For those of us with a bit of pocket change to spare, having a willing FFL, and wanting another AW and willing to gamble that these might be declared as AWs, it might behoove us to quietly do as Ben/Artherd did, and acquire (with DOJ permission) a couple of the off-list AR and AK receivers out there. I'd be buying them not to make Californicated guns, but gambling they get declared AWs eventually and thus I get a coupla new AWs.

[But there's no guarantee of this, the status quo could well be maintained and I could very well end up with fairly useless chunks of metal (at least to me - I have no use for any 'Californiaized' AW.]

(But glad I kept a dozen AK hicap mags!)


Bill Wiese
San Jose

[bu-bye]

So this would be good new for my KT-10 build right. KT-10 is what KT Ordnance calls their 80% "AR-10" lower. As long as the mag is pinned and its not on the list its ok and If it does make the list I can unpin the mag.

[Stanze]

w00t!!!!!!!!!!!

[bwiese]

So this would be good new for my KT-10 build right. KT-10 is what KT Ordnance calls their 80% "AR-10" lower. As long as the mag is pinned and its not on the list its ok and If it does make the list I can unpin the mag.

BuBye,

I would perhaps be a bit careful with homebuilt lowers, as opposed to acquiring an off-list limited production commercial lower like Artherd did. [If you got a letter from DOJ allowing this, though, go for it. Your letter to DOJ should be addressed to same people as artherd's and be phrased similarly.]

The problem here is that a key basic premise of Harrott v. Kings County holds that ARs/AKs had to be specifcally declared/named & promulgated (by being listed on DOJ Roster of AR15 and AK Series Weapons), by name, mfgr, model, etc. in order to be banned AWs. If not on this Roster, the the receivers are apparently OK providing no SB23 evil features attached.

Until I saw the DOJ response to Artherd's request, I'd always believed Harrott to not offer much protection. But this seems to be OK.

The problem w/homebrew receivers is that it might well be regarded by a court as impossible and impracticable for DOJ to specifically list details of every homebrew AR/AK receiver - esp as Harrott mandates it has to be listed on DOJ's Roster by name/mfgr/model, etc. Since your receiver would be something like "Jim Bob's Receiver #2", there thus could be a reasonable chance that Harrott protections would not carry over to homebrew receivers. This is a decision that would, it seem to me, be a matter of law and be made by a judge.

This would then make these homebrew receivers fully subject to prior Kasler decision, which put all ARs and AKs back into Type I category regardless of attached evil features - and under Kasler, if it looks/works like an AR, it is an AR.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

[82a1]

Great job Ben!! That is one sweeeeet looking rifle - esp with the ACOG setup. I'm gonna try damn hard to get one of those. Major props.

[C.G.]

+1 on the kudos. Done right with a letter; excellent job, Artherd!
Where's the bow emoticon when you need it!

[bu-bye]

Gotcha. Thanks Bill

Artherd, Where might I find your letter?

[Charliegone]

Holy crap! Great stuff!

[gobabygo]

Ok, you got my attention. Me like that rifle lots.

So it appears that we should be able to purchase a JP CTR-02 rifle either without the pistol grip or with a pinned mag. Probably without the pistol grip would be better/easier so we're following along the same terms as a Robinson M96. Then we could treat it like a CaliFAL.

I'm going to need to save my pennies and talk to my FFL.

[6172crew]

Best news all day! Does anyone have a list of non-named lowers? Or that funky list of the added AW's?