Old technology argument

[stix213]

The 1911 is heavy, has low mag capacity, and is slightly more difficult to disassemble than modern designs. I'm sure that's what the "obsolete" talk is mostly about. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it, just like there is nothing wrong with an M1 Garand, which is another example of a fine yet obsolete firearm.

[anothergunnut]

I understand what you are positing but don't buy the "complete POS" description. If that were the case the G.I.s since WWI, and all the subsequent engagements, would have been rejecting it as a combat sidearm.

Wondering which military issue sidearm in the last 100 years out performs the 1911 in function, durability, reliability and power?

When I was young I worked with a guy who had been a Seabee in Viet Nam. He took his Ruger revolver with him as a personal sidearm. He told me that his Chief took his revolver and a 1911 and threw them both in a mud puddle and told him - Now see which one works...You know the rest of the story.

Yes, as my comment indicated, they worked fine with 230 grain hardball; hollow points or accuracy required a trip to the gunsmith. My point was we take for granted certain things in factory 1911s which are historically not true; by contemporary standards, previous 1911s didn't measure up.

[VegasND]

Old Tech

New Tech

I want to use whatever technology I deem most efficacious for ME!

I like the 1911 just fine along with quite a few other firearms that have history.

[Noonanda]

This turned into a 1911 thread but what actually got me thinking was the show Gun Stories with Joe Mantegna on the M-2 .50 Cal. How we have these great weapon designs that some people love to call obsolete yet these weapons keep trucking along. Some people would call the 7.62x54R round obsolete yet this is the oldest cartridge still in continuous use 1891- present day. Its almost like they find one flaw in a design and declare it is worthless and obsolete. The .50 Cal is a heavy mother, the 1911 only holds 7-8 rounds, the 7.62x54R cartridge has a rim to it. Flaws to each yet these do not stop the aforementioned items from being used effectively. Every design out there is a compromise in one way or another, even glocks LOL. I guess when they do finally develop the perfect gun with zero flaws it will be "a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range".

[MXRider]

I would argue the M2 was made obsolete by the Dillon Minigun for many roles the M2 was previously used for. Though they both have gaps in what areas they cover, ie: rate of fire and max effective ranges as well as penetration capabilities. Merely speaking as a vehicle mounted weapon platform. I think I read the Dillon has a max round life span of 1.5 million rounds. An M2 can't touch that. Both are still largely effective and relevant on today's battlefield.

Regarding the 1911, I think it's a great pistol and a timeless design that is still relevant today. However in a combat usage roll, I think it is lacking in comparison to modern designs when it comes to maintenance and capacity.

But that's just like, my opinion, man.

[shooting4life]

Another thing, just because something is obsolete doesn't mean it is worthless.

[bsg]

Another thing, just because something is obsolete doesn't mean it is worthless.

+1. those on my short-list are primarily early variants of current production guns and models that are out of production altogether.

[saki302]

Actually, no

A standard 1911 slide has 5 pieces- slide, extractor, back plate, firing pin, firing pin spring.

A lot of the smaller 1911 parts actually make it simpler to maintain- you could get rid of a bunch of stuff, but then the hammer spring wouldn't be captive inside the mainspring housing, or you wouldn't even have a removable mainspring housing, etc. (look at the Colt Mustang pocketlite- disassemble that one, then compare to the ancient 1911)

When you really look at how it was designed, it's genius. Most modern innovations either cut weight (polymer/aluminum), cut cost of production, or put in heavier triggers for newer shooters.

-Dave

I think there are more parts in a 1911A1's slide than there are in an entire Glock pistol. But with a century of proven reliability, it clearly doesn't matter.

[bulletblood]

I think that's still the only downfall of the 1911 is that it is annoying to put back together. Any hammer fired SA/DA hanguns these days are crazy easy to field strip. I doubt I could get my 1911 back together if I came under fire while cleaning it, but I promise my P226 would be back together.

It's slower to field strip but I"m talking detail strip, meaning completely taking everything apart. Ever tried to take apart the striker assembly of an XDM, or the trigger group of an M&P? I can literally completely disassemble a 1911 in 1 minute or less. It will take me an 30 mins to an hour to completely detail strip and reassemble most modern polys.

[JDay]

How is a 1911 slower to field strip? I can field strip and reassemble a 1911 in under a minute.

Sent from my LG G3

[shooting4life]

How is a 1911 slower to field strip? I can field strip and reassemble a 1911 in under a minute.

Sent from my LG G3

Many modern 1911 require a bushing wrench to disassemble. Most modern guns don't require any tools for a field strip.

[jaymz]

Bushing wrenches only make dis-assembly easier. I can strip all of my 1911's without one.

[jaymz]

Almost forgot, obsolete doesn't necessarily equate to old, just as old doesn't necessarily equate to obsolete.

[Huntsprig]

This thread blasphemes the prophet John Moses Browning, whose name should only be spoken in a low breath and with due reverence to the gift of the 1911 that He bestowed upon us.

John Moses was infallible, and His creations perfect, and such it ever was and ever shall be.

In His time walking among mortals, it was well known that His 1911 needed a complete cleaning every other generation, and occasionally some gun oil offered to it for such was His commandment.

Today many have forgotten His word, and to their sorrow.









































This was not written by me, I stole it from a different forum.

But every word is true!

[Steve_In_29]

Hmm the fastest proliferating pistol design is "obsolete"??? Pretty much EVERY major brand that sells pistols (except HK) has added atleast one model of 1911 to their lineup in recent years. Plus there is a constant stream of new 1911 makers entering the marketplace.

"No good for combat"?? The Marines just added a new model of 1911 to their weapons inventory and not even the biggest poly-fan-boi could state the Marines don't know what they are doing when it comes to combat.

The Hi-Power WASN'T an improvement on the 1911 design, it was a work around of the 1911 patents.

Field stripping any non-match 1911 is pretty easy and a match pistol isn't exactly what is going to get carried into combat with a theoretical need to quickly reassemble under pressure. You end up with a slide, barrel, barrel bushing, guide rod, recoil spring, slide stop and the frame. Not exactly an overwhelming quantity of parts. I think some people are confusing field stripping with a detailed strip.

The 1911 has ALWAYS been 100% with the 230gr ball ammo it was DESIGNED to fire and many of the improvements were attempts to get it to function with ammo old JB never envisioned and those have been pretty successful. The supposed superiority of newer designs that can shoot almost any round right out of the box, is simply a result of their being designed in an era where there was a much wider variety of ammo to choose from and not an indictment of the 1911's design.

I also think some people need to re-evaluate their understanding of what the word "obsolete" actually means. Just because there are newer items on the market or an item has been around for a long time, doesn't automatically equate to it being obsolete. Many new items that get brought to market are simply other manufacturers getting around patents or proprietary information and not simply by virtue of being newer are they necessarily any better.

In the same vein, just because some pistol companies are selling newer versions based on Glock's design and adding improvements they came up with, does it mean the Glock (at 30ish years old) is obsolete now?