Straw Purchase...

[mr2ndamendment]

For future search button users:

A straw purchase, to be clear, is when one person with a good background is knowingly and intentionally purchasing a firearm with the full intent to supply or give that firearm to someone who they know is prohibited from owning, possessing, and/or being around firearms. The "clean" buyer submits to the NICS, does the 4473, and states they are the actual purchaser of the firearm(s) but in reality they are not because the intention from the get-go is to supply that firearm to a prohibited person. This is illegal for the buyer and seller and if the FFL knew about the true nature of the transaction they face serious penalties up to and including fines, loss of license, and/or prison time.

Now that we've got this out of the way we must also understand that it IS NOT illegal by Federal law to purchase a firearm on behalf of someone else/for someone else who IS NOT a prohibited person (example, wife buying a rifle for her husband for his birthday, and he's not a prohibited person). That is currently in question though because of the recent ruling of the cop who purchased a gun for a family member just so the family member could enjoy the cheaper price of the LE discount.

Bottom line is this; I recommend NOT buying guns for other people, even if you know they are not a prohibited person. On the 4473 it asks if you are the actual/intended buyer of the firearm and when you answer "yes" but immediately give the gun to someone else you embark on the "gray area" that now exists because of that recent case.

In CA all guns are registered upon purchase, so giving a gun as a gift to a buddy or family member means you're giving a gun to someone that's registered to you, which is illegal via CA law. Unless it's an inter-familiar transfer (parent to child), you need to go to a gun shop and do the actual PPT -at least in CA. Even in free states where guns are not registered it's still not the best idea because of the 4473 but also because you and that gun are forever tied together because there is record that you were the person the gun was released to on purchase day.

If you want to buy a gun for somebody as an honest gift I recommend giving them a large gift card for the gun shop, giving them cash, or going in there with them and paying for it while he/she does the background check for THEIR gun that you'll never own (some FFLs may not allow this, but it is legal).

[oregonnative1968]

I bought my nephew a pistol as a graduation gift from college when I lived in Oregon. He sold it to a high school friend a few years later who was a reserve deputy. The reserve deputy used the pistol to murder his mistress. When I went home for Christmas, the police questioned me. No issues with a straw purchase as it was a gift. No issues for my nephew either.

[Dvrjon]

For future search button users:

A straw purchase, to be clear, is when one person with a good background is knowingly and intentionally purchasing a firearm with the full intent to supply or give that firearm to someone who they know is prohibited from owning, possessing, and/or being around firearms.

Regrettably, Mr. Abramski learned the Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/12-1493_k5g1.pdf

http://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/209468-supreme-court-rejects-straw-gun-buys

The case, known as Abramski v. United States, centered on a former police officer who sought to buy a Glock 19 handgun for his uncle. Though both men were allowed to own guns

I didn't read the rest of your post, but in the Abramski case, Abramski bought the gun as the actual transferee, then received a traceable check from the uncle for the purchase price of the gun and specifying it was in payment for the gun. That killed any chance of the "gift" defense, and Abramski was found guilty of perjury on the FM 4473.

Although neither man was prohibited from owning firearms, the transaction was still deemed a straw purchase.

Best.

[Dinosaur Jr]

We all know that California will take advantage of almost any misunderstanding to lock-up a gun owner. There are PDs who have falsely imprisoned perfectly legal gun owners that are in full compliance with the law.

[A-J]

This is why I would never buy a gun for anyone other than myself

I would think that the fact that it's illegal would be reason #1. YMMV.

[Apec]

It's a useless law. It doesn't stop BGs from getting guns (since they steal them, not to mention their straw purchasers don't know it's illegal - or they'll find someone who'll do it anyways) and mostly criminalizes nonviolent gun owners (i.e. Abramski).

[TrailerparkTrash]

Stop being dramatic.

Its a given in this discussion I meant straw purchasing.

Stop being hyper sensitive.

What audiophil pointed out was that your original comment was vague to say the least, especially when read by a newbie gun owner, whom might be unfamiliar with the law. Not everybody is versed in these gun laws, so assuming anything as a "given" in this matter, is clearly a flawed assumption.

For future search button users:

A straw purchase, to be clear, is when one person with a good background is knowingly and intentionally purchasing a firearm with the full intent to supply or give that firearm to someone who they know is prohibited from owning, possessing, and/or being around firearms. The "clean" buyer submits to the NICS, does the 4473, and states they are the actual purchaser of the firearm(s) but in reality they are not because the intention from the get-go is to supply that firearm to a prohibited person. This is illegal for the buyer and seller and if the FFL knew about the true nature of the transaction they face serious penalties up to and including fines, loss of license, and/or prison time.

Now that we've got this out of the way we must also understand that it IS NOT illegal by Federal law to purchase a firearm on behalf of someone else/for someone else who IS NOT a prohibited person (example, wife buying a rifle for her husband for his birthday, and he's not a prohibited person). That is currently in question though because of the recent ruling of the cop who purchased a gun for a family member just so the family member could enjoy the cheaper price of the LE discount.

Bottom line is this; I recommend NOT buying guns for other people, even if you know they are not a prohibited person. On the 4473 it asks if you are the actual/intended buyer of the firearm and when you answer "yes" but immediately give the gun to someone else you embark on the "gray area" that now exists because of that recent case.

In CA all guns are registered upon purchase, so giving a gun as a gift to a buddy or family member means you're giving a gun to someone that's registered to you, which is illegal via CA law. Unless it's an inter-familiar transfer (parent to child), you need to go to a gun shop and do the actual PPT -at least in CA. Even in free states where guns are not registered it's still not the best idea because of the 4473 but also because you and that gun are forever tied together because there is record that you were the person the gun was released to on purchase day.

If you want to buy a gun for somebody as an honest gift I recommend giving them a large gift card for the gun shop, giving them cash, or going in there with them and paying for it while he/she does the background check for THEIR gun that you'll never own (some FFLs may not allow this, but it is legal).

^^^^. This +1. A "clear" explanation and understanding for all.

[Untamed1972]

Spengler had previously served jail time for beating his 92-year-old grandmother to death with a hammer. It was a crime for which the man had served 17 years in prison.

Here is the more important question.......why was a man who was convicted of such a heinous crime....beating his 92yo grandmother to death with a hammer.......out walking the streets?

That should have been a life sentence at minimum!

When will society learn that once someone has crossed that line......they can never be trusted?

[clbshooter]

She knew WTF she was doing and also knew it was against the law. She can burn in he** for all I care.

[fiddletown]

For future search button users:

A straw purchase, to be clear, is when one person with a good background is knowingly and intentionally purchasing a firearm with the full intent to supply or give that firearm to someone who they know is prohibited from owning, possessing, and/or being around firearms. ....

No, that is wrong.

And the following outline of what constitutes an illegal straw purchase has been confirmed by the U. S. Supreme Court in Abramski v. US, 134 S. Ct. 2259 (2014).

1. The actual offense is violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6), making a false statement on the 4473 (specifically about who is the actual buyer), and has nothing to do with the ultimate recipient being a prohibited person.
   
   
2. See the ATF publication Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide, 2005, at page 165 (emphasis added):

   15. STRAW PURCHASES
   
   Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.
   
   In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms...

   
   
3. So, if --
   
   
   1. X says to Y, "Here's the money; buy that gun and then we'll do the transfer to me [when I get back to town, or whenever else].", or
      
      
   2. X says to Y, "Buy that gun and hold it for me; I'll buy from you when I get my next paycheck."
   
   
   or anything similar, if Y then buys the gun, he is not the actual buyer. He is buying the gun as the agent of X, on his behalf; and X is legally the actual buyer. If Y claims on the 4473 that he is the actual buyer, he has lied and violated 18 USC 922(a)(6). His subsequently transferring the gun to X in full compliance with the law, does not erase his prior criminal act of lying on the 4473.
   
   
4. Some more examples --
   
   
   • If X takes his own money, buys the gun and gives the gun to someone else as a gift, free and clear without reimbursement of any kind, X is the actual purchaser; and it is not a straw purchase.
     
     
   • If X takes his money and buys the gun honestly intending to keep it for himself and later sells it to another person, X is the actual purchaser; and it is not a straw purchase.
     
     
   • If X takes his money and buys the gun intending to take it to the gun show next week to see if he might be able to sell it to someone at a profit, X is the actual purchaser; and it's not a straw purchase. He may, however have other problems if he manages to sell the gun at the gun show, and the transfer there isn't handled properly. He might also have problems if he does this sort of thing too frequently, and the ATF decides he's acting as a dealer without the necessary license.
     
     
   • If X takes his money and buys the gun with the understanding that he is going to transfer the gun to Y and that Y is going to reimburse him for it, X is not the actual purchaser. He is advancing X the money and buying the gun for and on behalf of Y, as Y's agent. So this would be an illegal straw purchase.
   
   
   
5. Whether or not a transaction is an unlawful straw purpose will often be a question of intent. But prosecutors in various situations can convince juries of intent, often from circumstantial evidence. A slip of the tongue, posting something on the Internet, tracks left by money transfers have all, in one way or another, and in various contexts, helped convince a jury of intent.

[fiddletown]

....Now that we've got this out of the way we must also understand that it IS NOT illegal by Federal law to purchase a firearm on behalf of someone else/for someone else who IS NOT a prohibited person (example, wife buying a rifle for her husband for his birthday, and he's not a prohibited person)....

It is not illegal to buy a gun as a gift. It is illegal, as described above, to buy a gun as someone's agent and to claim on the 4473 to be the actual purchaser/transferee.

....That is currently in question though because of the recent ruling of the cop who purchased a gun for a family member just so the family member could enjoy the cheaper price of the LE discount....

Wrong again. It is not in question at all. The Supreme Court has ruled, and Mr. Abramski's conviction has been affirmed.

[kustomkat1950]

How is she Greek? That's the bigger question..

[e90bmw]

She knew WTF she was doing and also knew it was against the law. She can burn in he** for all I care.

Wait, get the marshmallows and hot dogs.......
Why waste a good fire?

[bohoki]

i thought part of the straw purchase definition is that you knowingly buy a firearm for someone that can not legally purchase one

of course if they want to lay blame this comment makes more sense

The justice system failed too by letting someone out of prison that beat a 92 year old woman to death with a hammer!

[fiddletown]

i thought part of the straw purchase definition is that you knowingly buy a firearm for someone that can not legally purchase one...

It doesn't matter what you thought. As the Supreme Court ruled in Abramski, and as I outlined in post 25, that is not true.