UMP/USC Clone Receiver Possible?

[NSR500]

To the Mechanically Inclined Calgunners...

Looking at the UMP/USC Receiver; would it be within reach to Clone it? In my opinion it does not look like it would be too complex to machine out of Billet.

What do you guys think?

[aplinker]

To the Mechanically Inclined Calgunners...

Looking at the UMP/USC Receiver; would it be within reach to Clone it? In my opinion it does not look like it would be too complex to machine out of Billet.

What do you guys think?

To what end? Where will you buy a kit? A USC is only about $1300... good luck buying a kit and getting a receiver built for that... It's tough to machine in somthing at long lengths.

[NSR500]

For me...

1. Well I don't like that much plastic.
2. HK will not make the USC/UMP Forever

And while the USC's are cheap (seen them as low as $1100 new), you add more $$$ converting them to take UMP mags and stock.
If the receiver cost could be kept to under $400, I figure you can have a UMP type carbine for under $1800. It'll have a New German Lower, US Barrel, and Stock, etc... and be made out of metal.

[CALI-gula]

Sure, but you need a hook to make it viable; do it, but chamber it in .50AE or .458 SOCOM. You'll also need a custom barrel, mags, and ? But due to cost as UCLA mentioned, cloning it in .45ACP and gathering parts would likely not defray the cost of just buying one outright.

Yes, clone it: please make one for me chambered in .45WinMag so I can have a Carbine/pistol combo set with my LAR Grizzly.

.

[trinydex]

if you can draw it in a 3d modeling program it'd be as easy or as expensive as programming the cn machine. i'm sure there's a learning curve involved in machining gun parts and with the way business is conducted these days expect huge delays unless you're paying premium dod dollar.

[aplinker]

For me...

1. Well I don't like that much plastic.
2. HK will not make the USC/UMP Forever

And while the USC's are cheap (seen them as low as $1100 new), you add more $$$ converting them to take UMP mags and stock.
If the receiver cost could be kept to under $400, I figure you can have a UMP type carbine for under $1800. It'll have a New German Lower, US Barrel, and Stock, etc... and be made out of metal.

Cost would never, ever, ever be a deciding factor on this. You'd be looking at 1-2k, minimum, for the first hundred receivers.

Again, where would you get the kits? UMP kits aren't that plentiful

[NSR500]

IMO... The parts are readily available from people like Adam Webber.
He has complete lowers, US barrels, and HK complete bolts.
I feel the USC/UMP has less parts and in a ways, more simple than the MP5.

[Hkfanatic]

i have thought a lot about these and the insane cost to mimic one in plastic is what puts alot of people off.

trust me i know from experience that makeing plastic injection molds is not the most simplest thing in the world, let alone making a mold that needs to accept a trunnion and several metal screw inserts as well as metal reinforcement bars.

what it would take is somebody with ALL of the equipment to make these to keep the cost down, every time you use a sub contractor your cost either go's up or your profit margin go's down or both.

your talking a CNC mill at least, EDM machine to make trunnions (CNC MILL would work too) lathe for some of the parts, 100 ton press to stamp out some of the reinforcement plates that are inside, an injection molding machine capable of shooting enough plastic, as well as being able to inject glass reinforced nylon 66 (i dont think all machines will do the glass reinforced plastic)

im not even going to touch makeing the mold. it would be insane to say the least, if you didint do it your self it would probably cost 200,000$ (rough est.) im sure thats being conservitive. the mold would be the most difficult part (obviously)

so now your talking like 1,000,000$ AT LEAST! in machines

now if you did it all your self on machines that were PAID OFF

add the cost of the metal, plastic, building electricity, taxes, overhead (remeber you did all of the work yourself and have machines that you dont owe anything on) you might be able to crank a receiver for 100$ to 250$ cost and sell them for 400$

just my .02

[aplinker]

my kit question is in response to your statement about HK stopping the sales of the USC. MP5 kits are readily available because MP5s were widely issued.

The UMP receiver is huge. Material cost alone fpr the aluminum billett would be high. There's a lot of expensive machining there. Without detailed plans you'll throw away 5-20 machinings. To make a $1900 gun (including UMP mods)?

Cost can't be your motivating factor and aluminum is no better than plastic here. No one would buy it unless it's $300-400. You won't be able to do it, at cost, for less than that - and that's not including start-up costs.

THere are huge material advantages to plastic in terms of performance you're overlooking, as well, that would make an aluminum machined receiver less appealing.

[Hkfanatic]

my kit question is in response to your statement about HK stopping the sales of the USC. MP5 kits are readily available because MP5s were widely issued.

The UMP receiver is huge. Material cost alone would be high. There's a lot of expensive machining there. Without detailed plans you'll throw away 5-20 machinings. To make a $1900 gun (including UMP mods)?

Cost can't be your motivating factor and aluminum is no better than plastic here. No one would buy it unless it's $300-400. You won't be able to do it, at cost, for less than that - and that's not including start-up costs.

if you were going to do a receiver out of billet or cast metal to keep cost down i would use steriolithography (i know its spelled wrong google it )
to do your first prototypes that way you dont waste expensive machineing time. once you have one that you feel is 100% then tool up and make them

if anyone has ever seen steriolith its pretty cool they take a 3d cad model and draw it in liquid resin with a laser and when your done you get an exact copy of your drawing done in plastic. the only problem is it can take days depending on the machine

[darkest2000]

For me...

1. Well I don't like that much plastic.

if you don't like plastic there are a bunch of rifles/carbines out there that use metal receivers. Why would you insist on going with the USC platform if you don't like plastic? Being mostly plastic is one of the features that sets it apart from other guns. A metal USC is a step backward.

2. HK will not make the USC/UMP Forever

And by that same logic what makes you think the parts will remain available, once HK cease production of the USC/UMP? When that happens what will you use to build up the guns?

the bottom line is....

A receiver that is CNC machined out of a billet will NEVER be cheaper than an injection molded polymer receiver in a million years. Period.

With that said, Ed at HDPS is supposedly working on an alloy clone receiver of the USC for those that wish to do a pistol build without going through the trouble of having to SBR the thing. When will that project materialize is anyone's guess but sounds exactly like something you're looking for.

[trinydex]

With that said, Ed at HDPS is supposedly working on an alloy clone receiver of the USC for those that wish to do a pistol build without going through the trouble of having to SBR the thing.

what does this mean?

[AJAX22]

Stereolithography would totally work for this, but a 3d printer big enough to do a full sized run would be upwards of 30-40K.

I spoke to a machinist recently who was thinking about building one for himself, he had a design for the receiver in aluminum that would work as a 2 piece clamshell.

much easier to produce than milling it all out of one block.

[Hkfanatic]

stereo lith would work to make a complete gun but you would have to put the trunnion and some of the metal parts in at certian intervals during the build process and there is also the time it takes to actually do it. the USC/UMP receiver is a big piece. it would be cool to see a functioning clear or opaque USC though