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UMP/USC Clone Receiver Possible?

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  • NSR500
    Banned
    • Aug 2006
    • 19530

    UMP/USC Clone Receiver Possible?



    To the Mechanically Inclined Calgunners...

    Looking at the UMP/USC Receiver; would it be within reach to Clone it? In my opinion it does not look like it would be too complex to machine out of Billet.

    What do you guys think?
  • #2
    aplinker
    I need a LIFE!!
    • Feb 2007
    • 16762

    Originally posted by NSR500


    To the Mechanically Inclined Calgunners...

    Looking at the UMP/USC Receiver; would it be within reach to Clone it? In my opinion it does not look like it would be too complex to machine out of Billet.

    What do you guys think?
    To what end? Where will you buy a kit? A USC is only about $1300... good luck buying a kit and getting a receiver built for that... It's tough to machine in somthing at long lengths.

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    • #3
      NSR500
      Banned
      • Aug 2006
      • 19530

      For me...

      1. Well I don't like that much plastic.
      2. HK will not make the USC/UMP Forever

      And while the USC's are cheap (seen them as low as $1100 new), you add more $$$ converting them to take UMP mags and stock.
      If the receiver cost could be kept to under $400, I figure you can have a UMP type carbine for under $1800. It'll have a New German Lower, US Barrel, and Stock, etc... and be made out of metal.

      Comment

      • #4
        CALI-gula
        Calguns Addict
        • Jan 2006
        • 7027

        Sure, but you need a hook to make it viable; do it, but chamber it in .50AE or .458 SOCOM. You'll also need a custom barrel, mags, and ? But due to cost as UCLA mentioned, cloning it in .45ACP and gathering parts would likely not defray the cost of just buying one outright.

        Yes, clone it: please make one for me chambered in .45WinMag so I can have a Carbine/pistol combo set with my LAR Grizzly.

        .
        ------------------------

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        • #5
          trinydex
          Veteran Member
          • Feb 2008
          • 4720

          if you can draw it in a 3d modeling program it'd be as easy or as expensive as programming the cn machine. i'm sure there's a learning curve involved in machining gun parts and with the way business is conducted these days expect huge delays unless you're paying premium dod dollar.

          Comment

          • #6
            aplinker
            I need a LIFE!!
            • Feb 2007
            • 16762

            Originally posted by NSR500
            For me...

            1. Well I don't like that much plastic.
            2. HK will not make the USC/UMP Forever

            And while the USC's are cheap (seen them as low as $1100 new), you add more $$$ converting them to take UMP mags and stock.
            If the receiver cost could be kept to under $400, I figure you can have a UMP type carbine for under $1800. It'll have a New German Lower, US Barrel, and Stock, etc... and be made out of metal.
            Cost would never, ever, ever be a deciding factor on this. You'd be looking at 1-2k, minimum, for the first hundred receivers.

            Again, where would you get the kits? UMP kits aren't that plentiful

            Google Map of OLL Dealers

            List of CA-friendly Manufacturers, Dealers, Middlemen, and Magazine rebuild kit dealers
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            This post is based on actual events. Some facts may be altered for dramatic purposes. All posts are pure opinion. All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental, and should not be construed.

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            • #7
              NSR500
              Banned
              • Aug 2006
              • 19530

              IMO... The parts are readily available from people like Adam Webber.
              He has complete lowers, US barrels, and HK complete bolts.
              I feel the USC/UMP has less parts and in a ways, more simple than the MP5.

              Comment

              • #8
                Hkfanatic
                Member
                • Mar 2006
                • 336

                i have thought a lot about these and the insane cost to mimic one in plastic is what puts alot of people off.

                trust me i know from experience that makeing plastic injection molds is not the most simplest thing in the world, let alone making a mold that needs to accept a trunnion and several metal screw inserts as well as metal reinforcement bars.

                what it would take is somebody with ALL of the equipment to make these to keep the cost down, every time you use a sub contractor your cost either go's up or your profit margin go's down or both.

                your talking a CNC mill at least, EDM machine to make trunnions (CNC MILL would work too) lathe for some of the parts, 100 ton press to stamp out some of the reinforcement plates that are inside, an injection molding machine capable of shooting enough plastic, as well as being able to inject glass reinforced nylon 66 (i dont think all machines will do the glass reinforced plastic)

                im not even going to touch makeing the mold. it would be insane to say the least, if you didint do it your self it would probably cost 200,000$ (rough est.) im sure thats being conservitive. the mold would be the most difficult part (obviously)

                so now your talking like 1,000,000$ AT LEAST! in machines

                now if you did it all your self on machines that were PAID OFF

                add the cost of the metal, plastic, building electricity, taxes, overhead (remeber you did all of the work yourself and have machines that you dont owe anything on) you might be able to crank a receiver for 100$ to 250$ cost and sell them for 400$

                just my .02
                Last edited by Hkfanatic; 09-10-2008, 5:15 PM.

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                • #9
                  aplinker
                  I need a LIFE!!
                  • Feb 2007
                  • 16762

                  my kit question is in response to your statement about HK stopping the sales of the USC. MP5 kits are readily available because MP5s were widely issued.

                  The UMP receiver is huge. Material cost alone fpr the aluminum billett would be high. There's a lot of expensive machining there. Without detailed plans you'll throw away 5-20 machinings. To make a $1900 gun (including UMP mods)?

                  Cost can't be your motivating factor and aluminum is no better than plastic here. No one would buy it unless it's $300-400. You won't be able to do it, at cost, for less than that - and that's not including start-up costs.

                  THere are huge material advantages to plastic in terms of performance you're overlooking, as well, that would make an aluminum machined receiver less appealing.
                  Last edited by aplinker; 09-10-2008, 5:12 PM.

                  Google Map of OLL Dealers

                  List of CA-friendly Manufacturers, Dealers, Middlemen, and Magazine rebuild kit dealers
                  Click me-->So you're a n00b and you want to build an AR? <--Click me
                  This post is based on actual events. Some facts may be altered for dramatic purposes. All posts are pure opinion. All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental, and should not be construed.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Hkfanatic
                    Member
                    • Mar 2006
                    • 336

                    Originally posted by uclaplinker
                    my kit question is in response to your statement about HK stopping the sales of the USC. MP5 kits are readily available because MP5s were widely issued.

                    The UMP receiver is huge. Material cost alone would be high. There's a lot of expensive machining there. Without detailed plans you'll throw away 5-20 machinings. To make a $1900 gun (including UMP mods)?

                    Cost can't be your motivating factor and aluminum is no better than plastic here. No one would buy it unless it's $300-400. You won't be able to do it, at cost, for less than that - and that's not including start-up costs.
                    if you were going to do a receiver out of billet or cast metal to keep cost down i would use steriolithography (i know its spelled wrong google it )
                    to do your first prototypes that way you dont waste expensive machineing time. once you have one that you feel is 100% then tool up and make them

                    if anyone has ever seen steriolith its pretty cool they take a 3d cad model and draw it in liquid resin with a laser and when your done you get an exact copy of your drawing done in plastic. the only problem is it can take days depending on the machine

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      darkest2000
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2006
                      • 1401

                      Originally posted by NSR500
                      For me...

                      1. Well I don't like that much plastic.
                      if you don't like plastic there are a bunch of rifles/carbines out there that use metal receivers. Why would you insist on going with the USC platform if you don't like plastic? Being mostly plastic is one of the features that sets it apart from other guns. A metal USC is a step backward.


                      Originally posted by NSR500
                      2. HK will not make the USC/UMP Forever
                      And by that same logic what makes you think the parts will remain available, once HK cease production of the USC/UMP? When that happens what will you use to build up the guns?

                      the bottom line is....

                      A receiver that is CNC machined out of a billet will NEVER be cheaper than an injection molded polymer receiver in a million years. Period.

                      With that said, Ed at HDPS is supposedly working on an alloy clone receiver of the USC for those that wish to do a pistol build without going through the trouble of having to SBR the thing. When will that project materialize is anyone's guess but sounds exactly like something you're looking for.
                      Last edited by darkest2000; 09-11-2008, 1:54 AM.
                      www.collectordesignwerks.com

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        trinydex
                        Veteran Member
                        • Feb 2008
                        • 4720

                        Originally posted by darkest2000
                        With that said, Ed at HDPS is supposedly working on an alloy clone receiver of the USC for those that wish to do a pistol build without going through the trouble of having to SBR the thing.
                        what does this mean?

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          AJAX22
                          I need a LIFE!!
                          • May 2006
                          • 14980

                          Stereolithography would totally work for this, but a 3d printer big enough to do a full sized run would be upwards of 30-40K.

                          I spoke to a machinist recently who was thinking about building one for himself, he had a design for the receiver in aluminum that would work as a 2 piece clamshell.

                          much easier to produce than milling it all out of one block.
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                          • #14
                            Hkfanatic
                            Member
                            • Mar 2006
                            • 336

                            stereo lith would work to make a complete gun but you would have to put the trunnion and some of the metal parts in at certian intervals during the build process and there is also the time it takes to actually do it. the USC/UMP receiver is a big piece. it would be cool to see a functioning clear or opaque USC though

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