$45 PPT

[fairfaxjim]

IMHO, I think it makes sense. However, I do not understand how you can legally do it. Care to explain?

I'd like to hear the explanation too. I can appreciate the extra expences for the gun show, but PC12082 requires PPT through a licensed dealer, and sets a $10 max fee over and above the DROS fee.

The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076.

This is a state mandated transaction, both parties are required to follow the rules. The statute is pretty explicit that NO OTHER FEE MAY BE CHARGED. Seems like pretty thin ice to be on to get $10.

[ChessRatz]

Chessratz, you can take your business wherever you like. That is certainly your choice. However, in this case, you got a little off base IMHO. Ammo Bros DOES charge 45 for a PPT at the show. We charge 35 at the store. Want to save 10 bucks? Make the drive. Heck, I bet you paid 7 bucks for a beer at the show. Dont hear a complaint about that! The extra charge is to defray 1. the cost of being a vendor at the show (including 100$ just for electricity to process your PPT) and 2. for the extra liability incurred for taking the gun from the show to the store. Something that is worth pointing out is that, of the PPT's done at the show, many were charged with credit card. We do not charge for this, even though we pay a percentage for that as well. While we are sorry to lose your business, I think it only fair to point out what it costs us to do business at these shows. We get nickle and dimed for every little thing from the promoter and ancillary services (CC transactions and the like). So please, next time save the 10bucks and come to the store.

For all of you reading that may attend. If you feel that a charge is improper, talk to us about it. If, after doing so, you still feel the same way, then post away. But to blast any vendor about service without giving them the opportunity to show you how it came to be is simply not just.

So many things to respond to but the main point I was trying to make was restated by a few members already.

I'd like to hear the explanation too. I can appreciate the extra expences for the gun show, but PC12082 requires PPT through a licensed dealer, and sets a $10 max fee over and above the DROS fee.

This is a state mandated transaction, both parties are required to follow the rules. The statute is pretty explicit that NO OTHER FEE MAY BE CHARGED. Seems like pretty thin ice to be on to get $10.

If you think this is about $10 you are very wrong. It is the idea of getting screwed once more while I buy a firearm. If you read my original post, it has a link to a gun shop charging only $1 more. Those that posted in that thread were offended by the principle of the situation as well.

As for the rest of your statement
1) How much do you owe me for the bet you lost? You said "Heck, I bet you paid 7 bucks for a beer at the show. Dont hear a complaint about that!" I don't drink any alcohol at all. I think its funny how you think you know me just by reading my post.

2) I did not blast you. I was informing the rest of CG what happened at the show.

3) As far as giving you an opportunity, I told your worker at the show that it was illegal to charge more than $35. Your worker was having no part of my statement (understandably so since you seem to be under the assumption that what you are charging is legal). What else should I have done? It would have been pointless to argue about it at the show.

Its your responsibility to know the laws about OLL and the rest of the firearms you sell, the link in my original post will direct you to the FAQ on the BOF website. It seems pretty clear to myself as well as others about how much a PPT should cost.

Lastly, I also mentioned in my OP that J&J simply says they dont do PPT's at gunshows. Even Wes at TenPercent says it seems crazy to do them at a show. I cant fault either of them for their decision. Gunrunners as well as other dont seem to have a problem with it but to each his own.

[mblat]

IMHO, I think it makes sense. However, I do not understand how you can legally do it. Care to explain?

You are right. That MAY make sense, but isn't the dude just admitted to violation of law?

[geeknow]

[QUOTE=ChessRatz;1446240]So many things to respond to but the main point I was trying to make was restated by a few members already.

If you think this is about $10 you are very wrong. It is the idea of getting screwed once more while I buy a firearm. If you read my original post, it has a link to a gun shop charging only $1 more. Those that posted in that thread were offended by the principle of the situation as well.QUOTE]

You are right. I did make the assumption that you spent 7 bucks for a beer. In that, I was mistaken.

We understand the PC relating to the maximum charge allowed, but understand that to refer to PPT's done at our store. We will look into this further and determine the proper course of action for the future. I can say this for sure, though. This past weekend, we did 12 PPT's, 8 of which were charged with credit cards (which, at the rate we get dinged by the credit card people, means that of the $80 bucks we profited, we ate $13.50. We do not charge for credit card transactions, by the way). What will most likely happen regarding this whole situation is that we will no longer do PPT's at gunshows. It takes up a bunch of our time (every time we were doing a PPT ((ie; no sale for us)), we were making customer's, who had bought from us, wait to DROS their purchase.)

Regarding your feelings, I understand you are upset. I feel for you. I hate paying all of the fees myself (remember, I am a customer too).

I wish you had come and talked to me. If we make an error, it is an honest error.

[aplinker]

While I disagree with the whole government extortion of the PPT, and I think it's understandable to want to charge more at a gun show, I think you may be out of luck on this.

If you're doing business with your FFL at a location, IMHO, you have no right to either charge more or to refuse to do a PPT.

I humbly suggest that the PPT is the cost of doing business as an FFL. Wherever you set up shop - whether in a store or by the side of the road - during your business hours you're compelled to do them as a cost of having an FFL. Much like a gas station is required to provide air and water.

I can understand that you could choose to stop doing gun shows, but I would suggest stopping to accept PPTs while doing other gun or transfer business at a gun show could lead to a pretty sticky situation.

None of us are happy with the situation and I really do feel for you and your business, but it's part of the overhead associated with choosing to be an FFL.

So many things to respond to but the main point I was trying to make was restated by a few members already.

If you think this is about $10 you are very wrong. It is the idea of getting screwed once more while I buy a firearm. If you read my original post, it has a link to a gun shop charging only $1 more. Those that posted in that thread were offended by the principle of the situation as well.

You are right. I did make the assumption that you spent 7 bucks for a beer. In that, I was mistaken.

We understand the PC relating to the maximum charge allowed, but understand that to refer to PPT's done at our store. We will look into this further and determine the proper course of action for the future. I can say this for sure, though. This past weekend, we did 12 PPT's, 8 of which were charged with credit cards (which, at the rate we get dinged by the credit card people, means that of the $80 bucks we profited, we ate $13.50. We do not charge for credit card transactions, by the way). What will most likely happen regarding this whole situation is that we will no longer do PPT's at gunshows. It takes up a bunch of our time (every time we were doing a PPT ((ie; no sale for us)), we were making customer's, who had bought from us, wait to DROS their purchase.)

Regarding your feelings, I understand you are upset. I feel for you. I hate paying all of the fees myself (remember, I am a customer too).

I wish you had come and talked to me. If we make an error, it is an honest error.

[Rule .308]

Maybe I have a little different perspective on this but being as I also own my own business I would love the opportunity to make $10.00 a pop to have the opportunity of having a potential customer walk through the front doors of my business. PPT's are a pain in the *** for sure but they do drive traffic/business through your front door. The rest of the world gets to spend thousands of dollars a year on advertising in hopes of a 2% yield and with PPT's you spend 20 minutes or so of your time, make $10.00 for doing it and are guaranteed that this customer will come through your store in 10 days, sure sounds like opportunity knocking to me.

[PolishMike]

Chessratz, you can take your business wherever you like. That is certainly your choice. However, in this case, you got a little off base IMHO. Ammo Bros DOES charge 45 for a PPT at the show. We charge 35 at the store. Want to save 10 bucks? Make the drive. Heck, I bet you paid 7 bucks for a beer at the show. Dont hear a complaint about that! The extra charge is to defray 1. the cost of being a vendor at the show (including 100$ just for electricity to process your PPT) and 2. for the extra liability incurred for taking the gun from the show to the store. Something that is worth pointing out is that, of the PPT's done at the show, many were charged with credit card. We do not charge for this, even though we pay a percentage for that as well. While we are sorry to lose your business, I think it only fair to point out what it costs us to do business at these shows. We get nickle and dimed for every little thing from the promoter and ancillary services (CC transactions and the like). So please, next time save the 10bucks and come to the store.

For all of you reading that may attend. If you feel that a charge is improper, talk to us about it. If, after doing so, you still feel the same way, then post away. But to blast any vendor about service without giving them the opportunity to show you how it came to be is simply not just.

What you are doing is ILLEGAL. Rationalize it however you want to, your actions are ILLEGAL. You are breaking the law.

How many more ways do you want me to put it?

[aplinker]

What you are doing is ILLEGAL. Rationalize it however you want to, your actions are ILLEGAL. You are breaking the law.

How many more ways do you want me to put it?

Three more, please.

[tenpercentfirearms]

You can walk up to me at a gun show all you want and demand I do a PPT. Here is my response...

"Sorry, I don't have any copies of the DROS worksheet on me. I left them at the shop. I am sorry you will have to come in to start the DROS."

Suck it. I will not do PPTs at a gun show and I challenge you do show me a law that requires me to do PPTs at your will. For example I could specify I only do PPTs on Wednesdays at noon.

Again, I agree with everyone here, a PPT Is $35. That is it. However, if I don't want to do PPTs at a gun show, I won't. There is absolutely nothing that says I have to conduct firearms transactions at a gun show just because I am a gun dealer.

Then again, getting guys to come into your shop by having them do a PPT at a gun show actually sounds like good advertising the more I think about it. But heck, I don't even have time to keep my own shop in order let alone hit the guns how circuit, so what do I really care.

[ChessRatz]

What will most likely happen regarding this whole situation is that we will no longer do PPT's at gunshows. It takes up a bunch of our time (every time we were doing a PPT ((ie; no sale for us)), we were making customer's, who had bought from us, wait to DROS their purchase.)

Regarding your feelings, I understand you are upset. I feel for you. I hate paying all of the fees myself (remember, I am a customer too).

I wish you had come and talked to me. If we make an error, it is an honest error.

I am not upset, I felt it was important to inform other CalGun'ers about the discrepancy with your PPT charges. Sounds like you will look into it and correct it as well as do the best for your business, so in the end maybe this is a good thing.

I have bolded above where I think you might be wrong though. I must go to your store to pick up my PPT. You have an opportunity at that point (which Wes referred to i.e. you have me in your store). You have a chance to show me what you have to offer so I could become a potential customer. What gun enthusiast wouldn't like to add another place to "visit" when they have some cash burning a hole in their pocket?

PPT's are the ugly step-kid of the FFL/Gun Shop IMHO. But Rule .308 put it in perspective in his post, in most any business there seems to be one thing that is not as desirable as the other money making products/services you might provide... BUT... they keep customers happy and happy customers are what pay the bills (at least that is why my clients keep my phone ringing ).

[blackberg]

Chessratz, you can take your business wherever you like. That is certainly your choice. However, in this case, you got a little off base IMHO. Ammo Bros DOES charge 45 for a PPT at the show. We charge 35 at the store. Want to save 10 bucks? Make the drive. Heck, I bet you paid 7 bucks for a beer at the show. Dont hear a complaint about that! The extra charge is to defray 1. the cost of being a vendor at the show (including 100$ just for electricity to process your PPT) and 2. for the extra liability incurred for taking the gun from the show to the store. Something that is worth pointing out is that, of the PPT's done at the show, many were charged with credit card. We do not charge for this, even though we pay a percentage for that as well. While we are sorry to lose your business, I think it only fair to point out what it costs us to do business at these shows. We get nickle and dimed for every little thing from the promoter and ancillary services (CC transactions and the like). So please, next time save the 10bucks and come to the store.

For all of you reading that may attend. If you feel that a charge is improper, talk to us about it. If, after doing so, you still feel the same way, then post away. But to blast any vendor about service without giving them the opportunity to show you how it came to be is simply not just.

You know DOJ monitors these forums, and you just admitted to breaking the rules...

....and I am sure that you have just not lost Chessratz business but others future business as well, if you are fine with, so be it...but as having had my own business as well, I hate to loose a customer, and that customer's purchasing potential

-bb

[HCz]

we did 12 PPT's, 8 of which were charged with credit cards (which, at the rate we get dinged by the credit card people, means that of the $80 bucks we profited, we ate $13.50.

So profit from 8 PPT, after paying CC fee is $66.50. Assuming you had 4 cash PPTs, the total profit from all the PPT is $146.50 which covers $100 electricity usage fee, and there is $46.50 left. There is also cost for having tables there, but wouldn't profit from other things cover that?

If PPT was the $35, with same number of PPTs, You would have $40 profit from cash PPTs, and $69.5($80-$10.5) from credit card PPTs, total of $109.5 which would barely cover the electricity bill.

Would $37 extra profit worth the trouble and legal headache? PPT fee structure sucks for FFLs, and gun business is really a hard one, I understand that. But at the same time, trying to circument it may not be the wisest thing.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Chessratz, you can take your business wherever you like. That is certainly your choice. However, in this case, you got a little off base IMHO. Ammo Bros DOES charge 45 for a PPT at the show. We charge 35 at the store. Want to save 10 bucks? Make the drive. Heck, I bet you paid 7 bucks for a beer at the show. Dont hear a complaint about that! The extra charge is to defray 1. the cost of being a vendor at the show (including 100$ just for electricity to process your PPT) and 2. for the extra liability incurred for taking the gun from the show to the store. Something that is worth pointing out is that, of the PPT's done at the show, many were charged with credit card. We do not charge for this, even though we pay a percentage for that as well. While we are sorry to lose your business, I think it only fair to point out what it costs us to do business at these shows. We get nickle and dimed for every little thing from the promoter and ancillary services (CC transactions and the like). So please, next time save the 10bucks and come to the store.

For all of you reading that may attend. If you feel that a charge is improper, talk to us about it. If, after doing so, you still feel the same way, then post away. But to blast any vendor about service without giving them the opportunity to show you how it came to be is simply not just.

I agree with your stance that you should be compensated more than $10.00 for your time. It doesn't really matter however what you or I think. If you charge more than $10, you are committing a misdemeanor under California Law and are subject to arrest and prosecution.

Penal Code 12082. (a)
A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072... The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm , and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076.

So you see, on PPT transfers the most you can charge is $35.00 period; no exceptions. It sucks but it is one of the things you are stuck doing if you want to be a licensed FFL in California.

You can walk up to me at a gun show all you want and demand I do a PPT. Here is my response...

"Sorry, I don't have any copies of the DROS worksheet on me. I left them at the shop. I am sorry you will have to come in to start the DROS."

Suck it. I will not do PPTs at a gun show and I challenge you do show me a law that requires me to do PPTs at your will. For example I could specify I only do PPTs on Wednesdays at noon.

Again, I agree with everyone here, a PPT Is $35. That is it. However, if I don't want to do PPTs at a gun show, I won't. There is absolutely nothing that says I have to conduct firearms transactions at a gun show just because I am a gun dealer.

Then again, getting guys to come into your shop by having them do a PPT at a gun show actually sounds like good advertising the more I think about it. But heck, I don't even have time to keep my own shop in order let alone hit the guns how circuit, so what do I really care.

You can refuse to do transfers at gun shows. If however you have the ability to do transfers at the show, and you are transferring guns that are offered for sale, you cannot refuse the PPT. As far as you having the ability to say "I will only do PPTs on Wednesday for x amount of time" I don't see that ability spelled out in the law either. I do see a reference on the DOJ website here: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#9 which says "Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request."

That says to me that the only way for you to limit PPTs to wednesday is if you limit ALL transactions to Wednesday. As I read the law, you are not required to do a PPT on demand. You are however required to do a PPT if you are open for business and doing OTHER DROS transactions.

[dfletcher]

Chessratz, you can take your business wherever you like. That is certainly your choice. However, in this case, you got a little off base IMHO. Ammo Bros DOES charge 45 for a PPT at the show. We charge 35 at the store. Want to save 10 bucks? Make the drive. Heck, I bet you paid 7 bucks for a beer at the show. Dont hear a complaint about that! The extra charge is to defray 1. the cost of being a vendor at the show (including 100$ just for electricity to process your PPT) and 2. for the extra liability incurred for taking the gun from the show to the store. Something that is worth pointing out is that, of the PPT's done at the show, many were charged with credit card. We do not charge for this, even though we pay a percentage for that as well. While we are sorry to lose your business, I think it only fair to point out what it costs us to do business at these shows. We get nickle and dimed for every little thing from the promoter and ancillary services (CC transactions and the like). So please, next time save the 10bucks and come to the store.

For all of you reading that may attend. If you feel that a charge is improper, talk to us about it. If, after doing so, you still feel the same way, then post away. But to blast any vendor about service without giving them the opportunity to show you how it came to be is simply not just.

Just an observation - not taking a shot at anyone. I wasn't at the show and honest, sometimes I look and sometimes I don't regarding DROS charges.

Regarding additional costs incurred at the show it occurs to me that raising the price of the product(s) sold is the appropriate way to recover those costs, not by increasing mandatory fees in violation of state law. I read the subsequent post your understanding was DROS fee rates were applicable at your store, but as mentioned that's not the case, nice to see it cleared up.

In my business I also have to decide how to cover my costs, I know it is a challenge for all vendors and service providers. But I feel increased overhead costs should be reflected in the price of the product, not state mandated fees. To attach them to fees creates, I think, the impression that they are "official" or due to the DROS process. I know attaching the additional cost to the gun (Hey, why is your Smith 640 $10.00 more than that guy's 640?) can cause a problem, but if you have additional costs that must be covered - well, they've got to be covered.

Again, not poking a finger at anyone. I have much the same pricing problems to deal with and do identify with the problem.

[THE 0NE]

price of gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1