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Armor Piercing Rounds -or- Journalistic Snipers?

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  • FreedomWriter
    Banned
    • Feb 2014
    • 299

    Armor Piercing Rounds -or- Journalistic Snipers?

    Where Is The Objectivity In Media Reports About Guns In America?


    Reference Article Here: Felton Pointed Loaded Gun at Me: Wife.

    It has been dubbed by some as the "Cop Killer:" The FN Five-seveN 5.7 x 28mm. There's nothing new about the 5.7, its been in production for quite some time now. But, what is new however, is the assumption made by the writer of the above article regarding the type of cartridges that were supposed to have been found in the Five-seveN owned by New York Nicks point guard, Raymond Felton. As the story goes, Raymond, pointed his 5.7 at his estranged wife, Ms. Ariane Raymondo-Felton (apparently, she recently filed for divorce).



    The details about how the muzzle ended up being pointed at Ms. Felton, are very much unclear, as the writer never seems to get a grip on reality long enough to help the ready understand exactly what took place. But, the facts of the matter don't seem to be the real point of the story.

    The real story seems to be that Raymond, did not just point is Five-seveN at his estranged wife, but that he pointed "a huge armor piercing pistol" that "was one of the largest made."

    In my research of hand guns for home defense and personal defense, I came across FN Herstal and have communicated with them directly by phone about some of their products and their manufacturing processes related to QC/QA, materials selection, design philosophy and few other dimensions of manufacturing and production that were of particular interest to me personally.

    So, I knew that when authors Larry Celona, Natasha Valez and Jamie Schram, of the New York Post, claimed the all plastic body and polymer coated metal slide design of the Five-seveN to be "one of the largest made," that they had not done their homework as journalists. A somewhat typical knee-'jerk' and predictable modality for journalists more interesting in frying someone in the public's eye, rather than actually getting their facts straight.

    Yes, the overall length of the 5.7 is 8.2 inches. However, the design is an all-polymer construction including a polymer body and ploy-coated metal action with some metal internal components that would be expected in any modern day poly-pistol architecture. Overall weight is 1.46lbs and the barrel length is 4.41in. There are plenty of modern day pistols with longer barrels, wider plan-form-factor and greater overall weight.

    I could come at this story from a myriad different angles. I could talk about the legal, political and social aspects of this story. Given my background, I might even be able to offer some insight into how this story most probably come about. But, I won't do any of that. Instead, I want to focus on just two aspects of this story that caught my attention:

    - Armor piercing claims
    - Turning the gun into Godzilla


    The SS 195LF and SS 197SR, are the only two loads available to civilians, as all other cartridges for the FN Five-seveN are either outright discontinued or sold for M&P purposes only. The article above makes no mention of which cartridge type was discovered in the Five-seveN delivered to the police by Ms. Felton. What we do know however, is that FN SS 190 cartridge which was capable of penetrating the NIJ III vest, has also been discontinued and the SS 195 and SS 197, did not manage to penetrate any NIJ III vest in test conducted in multiple controlled studies.



    Rather than focus on the facts of the criminal charges against Raymond Felton, as they particularly relate to so-called "criminal possession of a weapon in the second, third and fourth-degrees," the authors found it more relevant to discuss the alleged lack-luster performance of the New York Nicks point guard instead. The authors make the claim that some third-party alleges that Raymond Felton, was "charged" because the "gun was not legal." Yet, we have no details about the aspect(s) of the gun that made it illegal under New York State's SAFE Act.

    Allegations and innuendo don't cause cartridges to become self-evident "Cop Killer" bullets, nor do alleged statements of Law Enforcement Officers involved in the investigation, that the FN Five-seveN was "one bad *** gun." I personally shot a Dan Wesson 1911 45 ACP this past Saturday, and I too thought it was a "bad *** gun." However, it does not violate the New York State SAFE Act, nor did it contain any "armor piercing" rounds. But, of course, I'm not a current point guard for the New York Nicks, either.

    On the matter of building up the gun to the point of it becoming god-like, the writers could not have been more transparent. Labeling a gun "big," throws off connotations to the uninformed that somehow the gun is more deadly. Second, as far as I know, there is no such thing as an "armor piercing gun." Guns don't pierce armor, bullets pierce armor and unless Felton, was in possession of loads that are not for sale to Civilians, then point is purely speculative at best, as neither of the .224 195 or 197 rounds are capable of piercing standard issue NIJ III vests.



    And, what does the 2008, Plaxico Burress case have to do with Raymond Felton, I will never know - except to cast all NBA players into a sort of guilt-by-association dragnet, whenever guns are involved.

    A couple questions come to mind in closing:

    (1) If it was Ariane, who turned-in the Five-seveN and not Raymond, how do the police know for certain that she did not arrange to have the illegal armor piercing FN SS 190 cartridges in the magazine before she arrived at the police station?

    (2) Allegedly, Ariane, simply appeared at a New York police station (somewhere) with a loaded "Cop Killer" gun in her hands. How did she manage to physically approach a police station with a "Cop Killer" gun in her hands and with 20 rounds in the magazine with one in the pipe? Did she just get out of her car, walk over to the station and announce what she was doing with a gun in her hand? I'd like more details on her physical approach to the station.

    (3) Where did the effective armor piercing rounds come from - there were illegal for sale to Civilians?

    (4) If the magazine contained FN SS 195 or FN SS 197 rounds, then they were not "armor piercing" and thus not illegal in the State of New York and the New York Post owes Mr. Raymond Felton, a retraction story with the proper headline. Will they print such a retraction and do they have the balls to do it?

    Again, I could have approached this story from a number of different angles, but I think the villainization of both Raymond and the FN Five-seveN, has to be called for what it is. Whether or not the magazine capacity was 10 or 20, is not the point. The first paragraph of the story by the New York Post, was that the "gun was armor piercing" which is the dumbest thing I've heard about guns in a quite a while. I've never witnessed a "gun" jump up and pierce and ear by itself, let alone NIJ Class III body armor.



    Now, where did I put my "Cop Killer" Gammo C-15 .177 BB Blow-Back pistol with its unlimited magazine capacity. I know it's here somewhere... I just have to find it. I want to point the muzzle at someone I know absolutely hates my guts, so I can get myself arrested and ruin my professional career. All because I was stupid enough to leave my .177mm armor piercing monster of a BB gun laying around the house - to be hand delivered to the police (fully loaded!) when my back was turned - by the one who hates my guts the most.

    This whole story makes no sense to me, whatsoever.

    The authors need to get a clue and the readers of their "journalism" need more accurate information than the authors have been wiling to give on this story. Truth is not subject to the opinion of people who could care less about its existence. It persists whether or not they care or pay homage to it.
    Last edited by FreedomWriter; 02-25-2014, 1:49 PM.
  • #2
    bigdawg86
    Veteran Member
    • Mar 2012
    • 3554

    Preaching to the choir brother! I did enjoy reading your post...

    Comment

    • #3
      FreedomWriter
      Banned
      • Feb 2014
      • 299

      The Headline keeps changing. If they have a different story, then they should print a different story.

      Exhibit "A": Morphing Headlines


      Exhibit "B": Adding and Removing "Armor Piercing" Language


      "Another source said Felton’s gun had an illegal, 20-shot clip that was fully loaded – and had a bullet in the chamber when she handed it over."
      Their server for both pages shows identical Date & Time stamps after refreshing the browser. That cannot be possible. If they are going to massage the story, that's fine. But, they should leave their original story intact by using a narrative timeline, so their readers can see what changes they made and why.

      This following paragraph did not appear in the original New York Post offing this morning:

      “I don’t think anybody is allowed to posses an unregistered, unlicensed firearm in the city of New York so certainly anyone who offers one to me will be told politely but firmly no thank you,” Stutman said.
      This was added during the time I wrote my review. They slipped it in.
      Last edited by FreedomWriter; 02-25-2014, 2:10 PM.

      Comment

      • #4
        Rosereader
        Senior Member
        • Feb 2014
        • 805

        You know what they say... Just a different day. There are stories like this all the time but that's really all they are. Stories. It's hard to tell if they just dont care enough to research it further, are just spreading evocative misinformation to fluff ratings or if they are ignorant enough to think that it is all true. Ignoring the sketchy story (I wasnt there so I wont be making any claims as to what did or did not happen) I've met plenty of people who know nothing about the capacities of any given weapon platform and assume they are godlike because they are scary.


        I know one individual who wholeheartedly stated that an AR 15 was more destructive than a flamethrower once... But that's a whole other mess.
        So I was driving home from the range and I noticed that the scent of warm steel, burnt gunpowder and lukewarm coffee combined and smelled oddly of... Peanut butter?! Man, the Hoppe's is going to my head.


        Originally posted by RR.44
        Rose, you're sick dude
        Originally posted by Jimmybacon43
        I like to call us the "Nighttime association of Law abiding and moral fellows"
        Or NALAMF for short.
        Originally posted by FremontJames
        What do you consider long range?
        Take half of a binocular, tape it to your rifle.

        Comment

        • #5
          ChuckDizzle
          Banned
          • Dec 2013
          • 4398

          Originally posted by Rosereader
          You know what they say... Just a different day. There are stories like this all the time but that's really all they are. Stories. It's hard to tell if they just dont care enough to research it further, are just spreading evocative misinformation to fluff ratings or if they are ignorant enough to think that it is all true. Ignoring the sketchy story (I wasnt there so I wont be making any claims as to what did or did not happen) I've met plenty of people who know nothing about the capacities of any given weapon platform and assume they are godlike because they are scary.


          I know one individual who wholeheartedly stated that an AR 15 was more destructive than a flamethrower once... But that's a whole other mess.
          It might be hard to swallow, but there are people out there who don't give a hoot one way or the other about guns. Journalists often work under difficult deadline crunches and must write about technical information they have little familiarity with.

          You see the same types of slight inaccuracies in most stories about technical specs, whether it is cars, aircraft, boats, video games, photography, or music. Of course with gun laws being so bizarre, what seems like a slight inaccuracy, can be a big difference to enthusiasts.

          Comment

          • #6
            RuskieShooter
            Member
            • Feb 2011
            • 468

            Originally posted by ChuckDizzle
            It might be hard to swallow, but there are people out there who don't give a hoot one way or the other about guns. Journalists often work under difficult deadline crunches and must write about technical information they have little familiarity with.

            You see the same types of slight inaccuracies in most stories about technical specs, whether it is cars, aircraft, boats, video games, photography, or music. Of course with gun laws being so bizarre, what seems like a slight inaccuracy, can be a big difference to enthusiasts.
            This is a poor excuse for lack of journalistic integrity. If you are not familiar with, or unsure of, the technical specs then don't use them. If the specs are required for the story take the time to research them.

            The problem is that other people that lack the same knowledge will assume that the journalist DID take the time to research what he wrote and will think the information provided is correct.

            -Ruskie
            The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed - where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once.

            -Hon. Alex Kozinski (Silvera v Lockyer, 2003)

            Comment

            • #7
              dyson
              Veteran Member
              • Feb 2013
              • 4342

              Never thought id say it, but the nytimes article is def more objective than this one

              Comment

              • #8
                SJgunguy24
                I need a LIFE!!
                • May 2008
                • 14849

                Last I checked the only handgun ammo considerd to be "Armor piercing" is steel core ammo per the BATFE ruling.
                If the press were objective and honest, the entire country would be shall issue, and there's no way in hell an inexperienced community organizer turned junior senator hack from the most corrupt city in the country would ever become president.
                There are 3 kinds of people in this world.
                The wise, learn from the mistakes of others.
                The smart, learn from their own mistakes.
                The others, well......they just never learn.

                "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give Me Liberty, Or Give Me Death!"
                Patrick Henry.

                Comment

                • #9
                  SanPedroShooter
                  Calguns Addict
                  • Jan 2010
                  • 9732

                  Yeah, they're ****ing liars bro...

                  My question is, are they stupid or evil? Both?

                  Ha ha I just saw the link was to NYP... This is bottom of the barrel tabloid trash. I would say one step removed from the enquirer.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    SanPedroShooter
                    Calguns Addict
                    • Jan 2010
                    • 9732

                    This the paper that ran a full page picture of an AR15 after that guy shot up a military base with an 870...

                    So again my question, people are stupid, 'journalists' especially, but is anyone that stupid?

                    Think about it.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      2shotjoe
                      CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                      CGN Contributor
                      • Feb 2011
                      • 26582

                      Originally posted by SanPedroShooter
                      This the paper that ran a full page picture of an AR15 after that guy shot up a military base with an 870...

                      So again my question, people are stupid, 'journalists' especially, but is anyone that stupid?

                      Think about it.
                      Yes, I work with sale reps.

                      Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
                      Originally posted by Kestryll
                      ..you're kind of a sad excuse for an attorney...
                      Originally posted by Libertarian777
                      ...Don't pick either side....

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        ChuckDizzle
                        Banned
                        • Dec 2013
                        • 4398

                        Originally posted by RuskieShooter
                        This is a poor excuse for lack of journalistic integrity. If you are not familiar with, or unsure of, the technical specs then don't use them. If the specs are required for the story take the time to research them.

                        The problem is that other people that lack the same knowledge will assume that the journalist DID take the time to research what he wrote and will think the information provided is correct.

                        -Ruskie
                        The thing is though when you are standing there and a police officer who looks and sounds like he knows what he is talking about, you are just going to run with it.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          ChuckDizzle
                          Banned
                          • Dec 2013
                          • 4398

                          Originally posted by SanPedroShooter
                          Yeah, they're ****ing liars bro...

                          My question is, are they stupid or evil? Both?

                          Ha ha I just saw the link was to NYP... This is bottom of the barrel tabloid trash. I would say one step removed from the enquirer.
                          Stupid. The news business is still a business so it is a game of trying to keep expenditures at a minimum while maximizing revenue. As someone that has seen behind the curtain of both broadcast and print journalism I can tell you that there is no hidden agenda, just stupid people running the show.

                          If there is a political agenda it is an obvious one (MSNBC or Fox News), but that agenda only serves the purpose of catering to a specific audience to increase viewers/readers, and thus advertisement revenue.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            SanPedroShooter
                            Calguns Addict
                            • Jan 2010
                            • 9732

                            Originally posted by ChuckDizzle
                            Stupid. The news business is still a business so it is a game of trying to keep expenditures at a minimum while maximizing revenue. As someone that has seen behind the curtain of both broadcast and print journalism I can tell you that there is no hidden agenda, just stupid people running the show.

                            If there is a political agenda it is an obvious one (MSNBC or Fox News), but that agenda only serves the purpose of catering to a specific audience to increase viewers/readers, and thus advertisement revenue.
                            I agree, if there was money in being evil, they would be much better at it. They aren't in business to report news, they are in business to make money. Duh.

                            Heinlein's Razor, 'never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity'

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              RuskieShooter
                              Member
                              • Feb 2011
                              • 468

                              Originally posted by ChuckDizzle
                              The thing is though when you are standing there and a police officer who looks and sounds like he knows what he is talking about, you are just going to run with it.
                              This still doesn't change what I said. Police are not "experts"; they are guys with a badge whose job is to take "bad guys" off the streets.

                              I stand by my original statement: If you are not familiar with, or unsure of, the technical specs then don't use them. If the specs are required for the story take the time to research them.

                              Anything less is just being lazy, dishonest, or both.

                              -Ruskie
                              The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed - where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once.

                              -Hon. Alex Kozinski (Silvera v Lockyer, 2003)

                              Comment

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