Answer this question about finishing 80% lower!

[truthseeker]

Since the ATF is saying the use of a mill to complete a lower is manufacturing a firearm, then what if the company allows you to finish everything except for the hole for the trigger pin.

Is it still NOT a firearm?

This would allow the person to merely use a drill press to finish the firearm at home.

Your thoughts?

[bigdawg86]

How about just complete the firearm and don't blast the details on a public forum. You will here from both sides of the keyboard lawyers and these questions usually turn the thread into a penal code pissing match. Gray area is obvious gray area. Librarian is the only non lawyer guru here that should answer!

[bruceflinch]

OP is seeking truth & some Bigdawg is pissin' on his thread...
Tagged!

[truthseeker]

Thanks Bruce!

How about just complete the firearm and don't blast the details on a public forum. You will here from both sides of the keyboard lawyers and these questions usually turn the thread into a penal code pissing match. Gray area is obvious gray area. Librarian is the only non lawyer guru here that should answer!

I asked a simple question, and IMO the ATF is saying that a company is helping me build a firearm, however, if the lower is one important step from being finished (no trigger), then their argument holds no water.

[itisagoodname]

The way its written, anything >80% is a firearm. Otherwise we'd all be buying 95% receivers then drilling a couple holes.

[bigdawg86]

I am sorry for urinating on your thread.

[tonyxcom]

Since the ATF is saying the use of a mill to complete a lower is manufacturing a firearm, then what if the company allows you to finish everything except for the hole for the trigger pin.

Is it still NOT a firearm?

This would allow the person to merely use a drill press to finish the firearm at home.

Your thoughts?

If that were the case, we could buy them that way to begin with, right? But we can't so there is your answer.

[Jason_2111]

The way its written, anything >80% is a firearm. Otherwise we'd all be buying 95% receivers then drilling a couple holes.

^^^ This.

A while back, there were a few companies that produced 80% lowers that had a little bit of the fire control pocket already milled out. Just the back end around the takedown pin... the idea being so you could stick an upper on it.
The ATF Tech Branch decided that this was too much finishing, and sent out "please stop that" letters to the companies doing so. They (the ATF) didn't insist on a recall, but just said stop machining them that far.
What we've got now in the AR 80% pattern, is very standard across all of the reputable 80% makers. There are a few knuckle heads that have machined out the fire control pocket and drilled the hammer/trigger pin holes, but left the mag well un-broached. These guys have tried to pass off these as 80%'s at gun shows... but that was squashed pretty quick, because you can single-shot an AR with an un-broached mag well. Nasty mistake there.

So the amount of finishing you have in a standard 80% AR is all you can buy... everything after than has to be finished by you. Whether you borrow/buy/rent a mill, or get a jig and a drill press and do it old school... you have to be the one to do ALL of the machining beyond the 80% boundary. A guy can stand there and tell you what/how to do it... but it has to be your hands that operate the machine.

What the ATF doesn't allow any more is the commercial push-button CNC build parties.

If you are properly paranoid, and want to get absolute accurate info... Give Jason Davis a call at Davis & Associates.

http://www.calgunlawyers.com/

[Flintlock Tom]

The "fly in the ointment" (yeah, I'm old.) is that 80% doesn't mean anything. A manufacturer sends a product to the BATFE and the agency evaluates it to determine if it is a firearm or not.
Currently the agency has sent letters to manufacturers to confirm that their product is not a firearm. If any changes are made or further machining is done the "new" product has to be evaluated for status.
I'm sure the agency does not want to get to the point where they are saying "as soon as you drill THIS hole, it's a gun."

[bohoki]

The "fly in the ointment" (yeah, I'm old.) is that 80% doesn't mean anything. A manufacturer sends a product to the BATFE and the agency evaluates it to determine if it is a firearm or not.
Currently the agency has sent letters to manufacturers to confirm that their product is not a firearm. If any changes are made or further machining is done the "new" product has to be evaluated for status.
I'm sure the agency does not want to get to the point where they are saying "as soon as you drill THIS hole, it's a gun."

that is exactly the point they are at if you drill any hole for the fire control even if its just an indent it is a "firearm"

its funny cause if you check the polymer lowers all the little locator nubs are higher than the sidewall just for that reason


my paradox to them is well since if any hole makes it a firearm

why can one not drill out a hammer or trigger hole then send your firearm out to be "gunsmithed"

[Jason_2111]

my paradox to them is well since if any hole makes it a firearm

why can one not drill out a hammer or trigger hole then send your firearm out to be "gunsmithed"

That sir... is a most excellent question!
I'm going to look into that the next time I talk to my lawyer.

[Dutch3]

Since the ATF is saying the use of a mill to complete a lower is manufacturing a firearm, then what if the company allows you to finish everything except for the hole for the trigger pin.

Is it still NOT a firearm?

This would allow the person to merely use a drill press to finish the firearm at home.

Your thoughts?

ATF is not saying you cannot use a mill to manufacture your own firearm. They are saying that if you use somebody else's milling machine, running code that somebody else entered, and you are paying somebody for the privilege, it does not constitute manufacturing the firearm yourself.

Feel free to use your own equipment, either manually or driven by your own data to manufacture your firearm.

You are also 'allowed' to merely use a drill press to complete an 80% paperweight. I have done so myself, using generous doses of mechanical aptitude and patience. This does not equate to simply drilling the trigger pin hole.

[Jason_2111]

That sir... is a most excellent question!
I'm going to look into that the next time I talk to my lawyer.

So I checked with my lawyer.

Turns out, this very same question is one that he has posed to them, and they (the ATF) are figuring it out at the moment.

[tanakasan]

that is exactly the point they are at if you drill any hole for the fire control even if its just an indent it is a "firearm"

its funny cause if you check the polymer lowers all the little locator nubs are higher than the sidewall just for that reason

my paradox to them is well since if any hole makes it a firearm

why can one not drill out a hammer or trigger hole then send your firearm out to be "gunsmithed"

If someone does ANY additional machine work to an 80, its a firearm. Dimple, thru hole, milling operation, etc.

Not sure about the raised nub on a poly lower...does filing nub flat constitute additional machine work and therefore past 80%? Hmm...

ATF is not saying you cannot use a mill to manufacture your own firearm. They are saying that if you use somebody else's milling machine, running code that somebody else entered, and you are paying somebody for the privilege, it does not constitute manufacturing the firearm yourself.

Feel free to use your own equipment, either manually or driven by your own data to manufacture your firearm.

You are also 'allowed' to merely use a drill press to complete an 80% paperweight. I have done so myself, using generous doses of mechanical aptitude and patience. This does not equate to simply drilling the trigger pin hole.

+1! As long as YOU perform the actual machining operations, you are GTG.

Robert

[Tripper]

that is exactly the point they are at if you drill any hole for the fire control even if its just an indent it is a "firearm"

its funny cause if you check the polymer lowers all the little locator nubs are higher than the sidewall just for that reason


my paradox to them is well since if any hole makes it a firearm

why can one not drill out a hammer or trigger hole then send your firearm out to be "gunsmithed"

I like that idea, after filing a bit of a dent in the fire control pocket, I have then 'manufactured' my 'firearm' by their definition, and thus should be able to simply hand my gun over to someone/anyone else for some customizing, not necessarily a licensed gunsmith even, since I am present during the customizing