Does law Enforcement really need select fire?

[KABA556]

I am all for law enforcement having full auto assault weapons, if I can have them as well.

Otherwise, no, sorry, but they should not have access to weapons that I as a citizen cannot use to defend myself.

As it stands they can get full auto, they can buy handguns that are not on the DOJ approved list, they can carry striking weapons like the ASP Expandable Baton that would be a felony for non-law enforcement personnel.

Citizens should certainly be allowed to own grenade launchers, belt-fed machine guns, mortars, rocket launchers, anti-tank guided missiles, anything that is shoulder fired or man portable should be fair-game for citizens to own.

Remember that most of the artillery for the Continental Army was privately owned prior to being given to the revolutionary army.


I could buy one of these for less than $8,000 dollars but the ATF won't allow the importation because it has a fully-automatic 30mm auto-cannon which "isn't allowed" unless it is butchered... The point of an armored vehicle/truck with a dual 30mm auto-cannon is so that I can defend my property, defend my airspace, and defend my rights.

Praga M53/59






With every podunk police department receiving an M113 or even an MRAP, and in some cases outright tanks or at least APCs with belt-fed machine guns or outright auto-cannons, I see myself as having no choice but to attempt to match and exceed their capabilities by acquiring some sort of 20mm or 30mm weaponry. Since I cannot import an auto-cannon I will either have to be content with a 20mm bolt-action anti-tank rifle or some sort of expensive auto-cannon that is already here and is papered.


When police are arming up with M2 Brownings mounted on M113 APCs, you can smile and wave, you can d*** ride and cheer them, you can do nothing and pretend America is functioning fine, or you can do what you can with what you have and try to match and exceed their capabilities.

There are a dozen other things I would rather spend the money on, but I see myself as having virtually no choice in the matter... I have to acquire a vehicle along the lines of a BTR-80 or even a BTR-90 or a BMP-2, something that will stop .50 BMG fire, and then mount at least an M2 Browning [if not some 20mm weapon] in the vehicle, something that will penetrate a typical SWAT vehicle.

[KABA556]

The government has started a massive arms race and they have forced honest patriotic citizens to struggle to keep up as best they can. People aren't tossing down $15,000 dollars on tricked out .338 Lapua rifles and .50 BMG rifles because they want to spend that sort of money on something they're probably only going to fire four or five times per year, they're buying those sort of weapons because they need something that helps to level the playing field against an out of control quasi-military police force that is armed to the teeth and armored to the hilt.


If you can legally acquire them and can afford them-

I'd suggest an M2A1-7 flamethrower for use against entry/tactical teams attempting to make entry and an M2 Browning for use against light armored vehicles and tactical personnel out in the open.


Ultimately we're going to reach a point where they begin openly killing people for dissent, in many ways we're already there... Somebody speaks out, then suddenly "reliable anonymous informants" mention that the person is a dangerous drug dealer, a no-knock warrant is served, the dissident winds up dead, no drugs are found, or perhaps five marijuana joints are found.



Police and government started the arms race, they shout about how they're out-gunned, what utter nonsense. In another life it might be funny, but not in this one.

They have drones, drones with grenade launchers, under-barrel grenade launchers, portable medium machine guns, mounted medium machine guns, mounted heavy machine guns, mounted auto-cannons, automatic rifles, sub-machine guns, armored personnel carriers, helicopters, you name it they have it, and they want to talk about how citizens with AR-15s are dangerous.

Compared to what they have, we might as well be taking a pistol to an artillery duel. We have to do all we legally can to obtain whatever we legally can and we have to hold on to what we have, no matter what.

[KABA556]

FBI recently started buying 20mm rifles. What exactly are they planning to destroy with a 20mm?

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/The-FBI-Goes-20mm-12-16-2009.asp

Other agencies are apparently moving to acquire 20mm auto-cannons.

[SactoDoug]

It appears that you missed the part where he says ROFLMFAO.

It appears you missed the part where he says

Got 3 of them out of 30 rounds.

3 hits out of 30 rounds at 25 foot distance targets...

[omgwtfbbq]

I'd like to address the "cops firing too many rounds" argument.

As a point of fact, LEOs are not trained to mag dump when they imploy their lethal force option. The issue is that no amount of training to the contrary can compensate for the physiological response that your body goes through in moments of extreme stress.

Experts note two particular symptoms which occur during these instances. The first of these is Visual Exclusion, commonly referred to as tunnel vision. Yes, training can help to mitigate this, but it sill still become an issue. Many firearms instructors will tell you that the "reassess" portion of training is done to break Visual Exclusion, it's primary goal is not necessarily to make sure that the threat is neutralized, but rather to make sure that a secondary or tertiary threat hasn't appeared.

The second syptom, Auditory Exclusion, is characterized by a physical inability to hear noises below a certain Db level (Can't recall of the rop of my head exactly how many Dbs.. I wanna say 120). In cases where shots are being fired, it's possible that the officer is not aware of how many shots they or other officers have fired, because they physically can't hear them or they are so muddled together that distinguishing them out of a group is impossible.

In addition, if we remember back to when we all took Driver's Education, experts talk about the delay between an individual's senses, mental processing, nervous system and muscular action. IE: By the time your eyes communicate to your brain that there is an obstacle in your path, and that message is sent via the nervous system to the muscles, which then actually carry out the action of applying the brake, the car has already moved a fair distance. The same is true with manipulating the trigger of a firearm during a lethal engagement.

By the time that your eyes receive the message that the threat is neutralized, then communicated to the brain, then communicated via the nervous system to the muscles which actually perform the action of ceasing trigger manipulation, several more rounds have already been fired.

In fact after many officer involved shootings, the officer will be asked to estimate how many shots they fired, and they almost always grossly underestimate, not because they are being untruthful, but because there body was physiologically incapable of accurately calculating such.

PS: This message is mad as a point of fact to be considered and should not be interpreted as an argument either way in any current debate. However, that being said, I know that facts are not very well appreciated around these parts.

[pummel]

LMAO at KABA556!!
Seriously dude, we get it, you hate cops. Keep writing your awesome, anti everything posts! You are coming very intelligent, brave, and not the least bit nutty!!
Fortunately, the people making the decisions about police having full auto capable weapons are much more reasonable than you. I look forward to your lengthy, paranoid response that I'll skim over whilst smiling to myself!

[SactoDoug]

That is useful information. Firing too many rounds on semi-auto will only be worse if given full auto. Regardless of the cause, physiological, psychological, training deficiency or a combination, the end result is still the same: excessive shots fired and more dead people. FA will only be throwing gasoline on the fire of an existing problem.

[KABA556]

LMAO at KABA556!!
Seriously dude, we get it, you hate cops. Keep writing your awesome, anti everything posts! You are coming very intelligent, brave, and not the least bit nutty!!
Fortunately, the people making the decisions about police having full auto capable weapons are much more reasonable than you. I look forward to your lengthy, paranoid response that I'll skim over whilst smiling to myself!

You'll probably be smiling right up until they shove you into a cattle car destined for a FEMA camp, or maybe you'll be one of the guys shoving people into the cattle cars?

[pummel]

You'll probably be smiling right up until they shove you into a cattle car destined for a FEMA camp, or maybe you'll be one of the guys shoving people into the cattle cars?

Sort of related, I rode in a cattle car in basic training. Not very comfortable! I hope those FEMA camps are close, because I got carsick something awful and I'd hate for that to happen again!

[KABA556]

LMAO at KABA556!!
Seriously dude, we get it, you hate cops. Keep writing your awesome, anti everything posts! You are coming very intelligent, brave, and not the least bit nutty!!
Fortunately, the people making the decisions about police having full auto capable weapons are much more reasonable than you. I look forward to your lengthy, paranoid response that I'll skim over whilst smiling to myself!

Hate is not a proper word.

I wish all the police in the USA, all the police on this forum, have a boring uneventful day and that they go home in one piece, never having to draw their weapon, never harming anybody and never having anybody attempt to cause them harm.

A nice uneventful boring day.


If disagreeing with their policies and refusing to support policies I believe to be repugnant makes me a hater, then go ahead and smear me with that term.



Now if police want to take part in a Ruby Ridge, a Waco, or an YFZ Ranch Raid, then I wish them whatever flak they get from the citizens they are going after.

[pummel]

Hate is not a proper word.

I wish all the police in the USA, all the police on this forum, have a boring uneventful day and that they go home in one piece, never having to draw their weapon, never harming anybody and never having anybody attempt to cause them harm.

A nice uneventful boring day.


If disagreeing with their policies and refusing to support policies I believe to be repugnant makes me a hater, then go ahead and smear me with that term.



Now if police want to take part in a Ruby Ridge, a Waco, or an YFZ Ranch Raid, then I wish them whatever flak they get from the citizens they are going after.

Ok, I can seriously respond to this. I understand your views/ feelings towards law enforcement (which I'm using interchangeably) and that they may have been formed by constant media coverage of those polarizing events you mentioned. Additionally, if you're not a fella with a lengthy criminal record, chances are your contact with LEO were not most pleasant. Getting a ticket, or reporting some sort of crime (as a victim or witness) and that is how most people will encounter police. It's easy to see why most folks don't want to deal with Police (if not downright dislike them)
But you should not judge all LEO's (local, state, federal) on the bad actions (whether perceived or true) of a few. Much like as a police officer, I don't treat the next person I speak with based off of my experience from the last one. People are people, and no two are alike.
This discussion is about whether Law Enforcement should have access to full auto weapons. Bringing up the Dorner incident, or the Manteca shooting is no more relevant than mentioning Newtown in a discussion about whether citizens should have access to AR's. of course, that's just my opinion.

[KABA556]

Ok, I can seriously respond to this. I understand your views/ feelings towards law enforcement (which I'm using interchangeably) and that they may have been formed by constant media coverage of those polarizing events you mentioned. Additionally, if you're not a fella with a lengthy criminal record, chances are your contact with LEO were not most pleasant. Getting a ticket, or reporting some sort of crime (as a victim or witness) and that is how most people will encounter police. It's easy to see why most folks don't want to deal with Police (if not downright dislike them)
But you should not judge all LEO's (local, state, federal) on the bad actions (whether perceived or true) of a few. Much like as a police officer, I don't treat the next person I speak with based off of my experience from the last one. People are people, and no two are alike.
This discussion is about whether Law Enforcement should have access to full auto weapons. Bringing up the Dorner incident, or the Manteca shooting is no more relevant than mentioning Newtown in a discussion about whether citizens should have access to AR's. of course, that's just my opinion.

I have no criminal record and have never received any sort of traffic or parking citation. I have dealt with the police as a witness on a number of occasions and as a traffic accident victim on a number of occasions. MOST encounters were reasonably pleasant.

[lavey29]

They didn't need full auto, they needed rifles. The problem was going against guys in body armor when they were armed with pistols and shotguns, calibers that have little to no effect on rifle plates.

Supposedly the story I heard was they borrowed semiautomatic ARs from a local FFL to take the guys down. Full auto would have only made that situation worse IMO.

Tell that to the 2 SWAT guys that cut off his escape with their vehicle blocking his path and he unloaded a beta mag full at them through the front windshield. They crawled out of the car and then engaged and neutralized him by firing underneath their vehicle and hitting the suspect in the ankle.

You are correct they needed rifles and they did get them from B&B guns as the incident developed. It changed policy for a lot of Departments after this incident as far as deployment of rifles in the field.

[lavey29]

Why is the bank's money more important than your house and your possessions?

Police seem to be able to respond to a bank robbery within minutes, sometimes less than 90 seconds. How long does it take police to respond to a report of a burglary?


Let the banks defend their own money. Why should taxpayers have to pay for a police force that exists essentially to protect corporate property?

Wow, one brilliant idea after another. You should run for congress, you would fit in quite well given the quality of most of the representatives in this state.

[KABA556]

Wow, one brilliant idea after another. You should run for congress, you would fit in quite well given the quality of most of the representatives in this state.

So anybody who disagrees with you on a single point is basically on par with Feinstein and Boxer?


Good to know that so-called patriots are always up for a lively civil debate and discussion with well-reasoned and properly developed arguments.



No wonder the "right" is a disorganized mess.