Magazine 10 Round Conversion Advice?

[SactoDoug]

I was an Aircraft Mechanic. A rivet can get drilled out. It's NOT forever. Its a mechanical joining device. The law and the meaning of PA have zero to do with physical attributes. Glue, welding, epoxy, screws, nuts, bolts, ribs, that are all things that can be removed with effort and force..which means they are not permanent.

I don't believe your definition is a "reasonable person" definition.

[viet4lifeOC]

CWDraco,

So you're saying that a plastic magazine block inside the magazine is permanent and legal?

[GoZoner]

... But once again, it's a free country, go ahead and believe what you want.

Thanks for the reminder that we are free; I'd forgotten.

For the OP: MagazineBlocks

[LCpl Kutches]

While subject to different opinions. I have visited about two gun stores in the San Francisco Bay Area that sell 10/30 magazine rebuild kits. For a fee of $15.00 they will put a block and epoxy the magazine so that it permanently holds 10 rounds.

[SactoDoug]

Thanks for the reminder that we are free; I'd forgotten.

For the OP: MagazineBlocks

Thank you for the link. That will save me a couple hours of trial and error for just $40.

That just removed my excuse for putting off the Honey Do list on Saturday. You win some, you lose some.

[bigbearbear]

I think I understand now, Draco is giving very good information (thanks!). Basically, it boils down to this:
- If the device/method used to limit your magazine is removed, and your magazine continue to function using the remaining parts, it will be illegal.

- The difficulty level of removal is irrelevant, everything can be removed given enough force and time.

The Magblock method Draco showed in the video is a good example of how this can be done. If you remove the magblock, the magazine is now in peices and you cannot put back the remaining parts and make it a functional magazine again.

Brilliant! I suspect prices of maglocks are going to skyrocket now.

[dls]

Thanks for the reminder that we are free; I'd forgotten.

For the OP: MagazineBlocks

That's where I got my AR and XD blocks.
Fast shipping.

[GoZoner]

Thank you for the link. That will save me a couple hours of trial and error for just $40.

That just removed my excuse for putting off the Honey Do list on Saturday. You win some, you lose some.

I have their Sig P229-1 (E2) 9mm blocks. I had some trial and error getting enough epoxy to keep the block in place (although the above video doesn't indicate that epoxy is required). When in place it was a little bit tight to get that last, 10th, round in so I sanded down the block to get a little space. Perfect now!

[SactoDoug]

I think I understand now, Draco is giving very good information (thanks!). Basically, it boils down to this:
- If the device/method used to limit your magazine is removed, and your magazine continue to function using the remaining parts, it will be illegal.

- The difficulty level of removal is irrelevant, everything can be removed given enough force and time.

The Magblock method Draco showed in the video is a good example of how this can be done. If you remove the magblock, the magazine is now in peices and you cannot put back the remaining parts and make it a functional magazine again.

Brilliant! I suspect prices of maglocks are going to skyrocket now.

I think that understanding is flawed. I can cut a hole in the bottom of a magazine with a block in it and remove the block with the magazine still functional. That would convert it into a full "high capacity" magazine without disassembly.

His supporting document specifically states that irreversible is not synonymous with permanent. I believe the confusion is in a later statement in that document that states that reversing the alteration would be illegal. Of course it would be illegal since you would then have a "high capacity" magazine. To legally remove the permanent alteration you would have to disassemble the magazine, then remove the alteration and never put it back together as a "high capacity" magazine.

page 26
A4.18
Comment:

Recommended revision: "Permanently Altered" means any change or modification not reversible without extensive use of tools.

Response:

The Department disagrees with the comment. The statute does not allow for the alteration to be restored. Therefore, such definition would be in conflict with the statute and the Department does not have authority to conflict with the statute.

[CWDraco]

They (The AG) agreed with people who said, the ORIGINAL definition of "PA" was, "an irreversible condition."

They (The AG) stated, irreversible and permanent are NOT the same.

Follow me here...this is a logic bomb and Verger would explode before Scotty and Spock got it to the Transporter if it tried to figure this out...it takes a human understanding to "get it."

The law doesnt allow (or permit) a Large Capacity Magazine, that was altered to hold less then 11, to be reversed or reversible. The AG stated this and restated this a dozen times when over a dozen people asked for a definition or standard that defined permanent. There is positively absolutely, no way possible to reverse a LCM's modification. Reversing it with any amount of force means it WASNT LEGAL TO BEGIN WITH. Because only PERMANENTLY ALTERED magazines are legal ones.

So if I stick a cotter key through a hole in the side of a magazine, where only pulling it out with my fingers removes (reverses) it, this is the same as installing a rivet, with epoxy and welds over it. The effort required to remove the limiting device isn't addressed in the law. Finger power or nuclear powered laser cutting torch... Its the same thing. The law doesn't give a crap about how hard or easy your limiting device is or isnt to remove or install. It only says it MUST be permanently altered to have been legal.

The only way to solve this problem, is the magazine must cease to be a magazine at the time the limiting device is removed, if it's ever removed.

They (The AG) knows and agrees, every single thing you do "can be" undone, but if it "can be" undone it was never done legally if you are still holding a large capacity magazine after you undo it.

[CWDraco]

I think that understanding is flawed. I can cut a hole in the bottom of a magazine with a block in it and remove the block with the magazine still functional. That would convert it into a full "high capacity" magazine without disassembly.

Oh and I can also prove every single magazine sold in CA, even ten round magazines can be altered to hold 11 rounds. That doesnt mean they are Large capacity magazines. Hint, buy a standard AR15 10rd magazine, you know the little ones, and push open the floor plate, drop 2 coils of the spring out of the bottom, then slide the plate back in. Bam...you have a 11 capacity magazine. Sure it has a few coils hanging out the bottom, but it still holds and feeds 11 rounds.

Why is the fact this "CAN BE" done not illegal?
Answer is because doing it is illegal, not the fact it can be done. The fact you are manufacturing a large capacity magazine is covered under the law, which is exactly what you are doing...manufacturing.

I can figure a way to reverse a Glock 9mm magazine to a Large capacity magazine without destroying it or rendering it a non-magazine.

I can also figure a way to make every single gun you own illegal...shall we keep posting these on a public forum?

My advice is anything you do, do it in a way where the limiting device can't be removed without destroying something and rendering the item a non-magazine.

[bigbearbear]

I think that understanding is flawed. I can cut a hole in the bottom of a magazine with a block in it and remove the block with the magazine still functional. That would convert it into a full "high capacity" magazine without disassembly.

His supporting document specifically states that irreversible is not synonymous with permanent. I believe the confusion is in a later statement in that document that states that reversing the alteration would be illegal. Of course it would be illegal since you would then have a "high capacity" magazine. To legally remove the permanent alteration you would have to disassemble the magazine, then remove the alteration and never put it back together as a "high capacity" magazine.

page 26
A4.18
Comment:

Response:

You're concentrating on the wrong thing. It is not about the ability to alter, or re-manufacture the magazine or its parts after it has been manufactured or put together.

It is this, you put in the block it is limited to 10 rounds. You remove the block, the magazine doesn't work anymore.

The keyword here is "remove", hence Draco's original mention about nuclear force. You put in something that can be removed (remember everything can be removed) and the magazine keeps functioning, it'll be illegal. But if that device is removed and the remaining parts cannot be put together into a working high-capacity magazine, you're good.

So what if, after putting in the magblock, there exists a way (as you illustrated) to modify the magazine without taking it apart to make it high capacity again? This is the brilliant part of the solution, it doesn't matter.

Everything can be modified given enough resources. Though I'm not a manufacturing engineer myself, I'm pretty sure there's a way to make a factory 10 round magazine into a 30 round one without taking it apart. Some kind of in place cutting/welding and adding space etc. And it doesn't matter, it doesn't make the manufacturing of the factory 10 round magazine illegal.

My 2 cents.
Very interesting topic actually.

[SactoDoug]

Reversing it with any amount of force means it WASNT LEGAL TO BEGIN WITH.

This is where we are going to have to disagree. Nowhere in the document that you posted does it state that. Nor does it state this standard that you are proposing that reversible alterations are illegal.

It states one standard and one only, the statutory standard:

"Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" shall mean capable of accommodating more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

AG's Interpretations all together:

The Department agrees that the word "irreversible" is not synonymous with the work "permanent".

The statute does not allow for the alteration to be restored. Therefore, such definition would be in conflict with the statute and the Department does not have authority to conflict with the statute.

[Dsal_13]

So basically the little 10rd mags are also illegal because it can fit 11

I just dont understand what dracos point is... I understand what you are saying man dont get me wrong. But you are basically calling out all major stores that sell 10/30 magazines that they are selling illegal mags bexause if you drill out the rivet it will still be a working "hi cap" magazine...

What point are you trying to make with all of this? Dont buy 10/30s? Dont buy rebuilt kits?.. start top loading our ARs? I dont comprehend what your point is... please dont take offense to my post... im just confused.

-DS

[CWDraco]

This is where we are going to have to disagree. Nowhere in the document that you posted does it state that. Nor does it state this standard that you are proposing that reversible alterations are illegal.

It states one standard and one only, the statutory standard:



AG's Interpretations all together:

Yes it does state it, you just can't understand or are unwilling to understand the pure reasonable logic.

If P.A. was not a time requirement, then every Glock sold in CA comes with an illegal 10rd magazine, since none of them have epoxy, glue or welds on the floor plate. The limiting device is inside for anyone to alter or remove if they choose to. Doing so simply violates the law, when the plate is placed back on, you have manufactured a LCM post 1/1/2000.

This is kindergarten easy to understand.

P.A. has nothing to do with how easy or hard it is to reverse the modification, its a time frame. All modifications can be removed, its in what you are left holding AFTER its removal that matters.

The ONLY modified magazine that was legally modified is the one that it's modification was done in a way that PERMANENTLY ALTERED its capacity.

When I drill out your rivet, I am holding a working magazine. That means the modification was NOT LEGAL, and the magazine even with the rivet in is a Large Capacity Magazine since the modification was not a permanently altering one.

Once you remove the floor plate on a magazine, its NO LONGER a magazine. Therefor anything you do AFTER that is either legal or illegal. If you assemble it without the limiting block, you have manufactured a LCM post 1/1/2000 in violation of the law.

The FOREVER time frame ended when the magazine was disassembled. That magazine is DEAD! Its no longer what it was. When you put it back together, you MUST MUST MUST do so In Accordance With the law.

If I was wrong, they you could not buy a magazine re-build kit which contains EVERY single part of a Large Capacity Magazine. The reason is simple...its in how you manufacture a magazine that determines if you violate the law.