Magazine 10 Round Conversion Advice?

[SactoDoug]

Hi everyone. Newbie here.

I did perform of number of searches on this subject but they did not bear fruit except for one thread where no one answered.

I have a number of disassembled 20 round magazines. I will be modifying them prior to assembly to limit them to 10 rounds to meet the legal requirements.

I am a bit of a tinker/DIY kind of person. I do have some tools such as a drill press, welder and other basic metal working tools.

I am contemplating four ways to go about limiting the magazine capacity to 10 rounds:

1. Block -- a chunk of metal, wood or plastic inserted in the magazine
2. Roll Pin -- drill a hole at the correct spot, insert roll pin
3. Rivet -- same as roll pin only more permanent
4. Crimp -- Crimp the side of a metal magazine

I'm leaning towards using roll pins but I am not sure how well they will stay in the magazines since the metal is not very thick.

Has anyone else done anything like this? Any advice?

[67goat]

Most people rivet them. Depending on the manufacturer or type, there may be preformed polymer blocks for them.

[CWDraco]

A roll pin / rivet is not legal in my book. This is how I and many many people including many LEO view the law.

If the modification can be removed with the magazine still working as a magazine, its NOT legal.

Tapping out a rivet even after removing welding over it or epoxy IS NOT LEGAL. Same for the pin. If it can be removed while the magazine is in working condition, then the modification was not permanent.

The Modification must be done in a way that permanently alters the magazine. The only way to comply with that requirement is to make sure during the removal process, the magazine is no longer a magazine. In that case, the magazine is being manufactured without the limiting device is being done so against the law.

Permanently altered is a function of time, NOT a physical attribute. Nothing but death and taxes are permanent.

[SactoDoug]

If that is the standard, then most California legal magazines sold at gun stores are illegal. They can be disassembled, the block removed and reassembled with the magazine fully functional. Even crimps can be taken out without destroying the magazine.

A roll pin / rivet is not legal in my book. This is how I and many many people including many LEO view the law.

If the modification can be removed with the magazine still working as a magazine, its NOT legal.

Tapping out a rivet even after removing welding over it or epoxy IS NOT LEGAL. Same for the pin. If it can be removed while the magazine is in working condition, then the modification was not permanent.

The Modification must be done in a way that permanently alters the magazine. The only way to comply with that requirement is to make sure during the removal process, the magazine is no longer a magazine. In that case, the magazine is being manufactured without the limiting device is being done so against the law.

Permanently altered is a function of time, NOT a physical attribute. Nothing but death and taxes are permanent.

[CWDraco]

If that is the standard, then most California legal magazines sold at gun stores are illegal. They can be disassembled, the block removed and reassembled with the magazine fully functional. Even crimps can be taken out without destroying the magazine.

I never said destroying...once the magazine is DISASSEMBLED...it's no longer a magazine. Its a pile of parts.

IMHO the only way to legally convert a magazine is with a block on the inside which REQUIRES disassemble to remove. You don't need to glue, weld or epoxy the floor plate since no matter how its removed, disassembly is disassembly and the magazine is no longer working. The re-assembly is manufacturing, which must be done according to the law.

[CWDraco]

[CoopsDad]

I don't think MagPul would sell illegal 10/30 P-mags- they've got rivets limiting them to 10 rounds, and they came in factory plastic wrap.

[SactoDoug]

Sounds like another case where legality trumps common sense. It would take much longer to drill out rivets than to disassemble a magazine to remove a block. If disassembly is the legal standard, then I will go with it.

Look like I will be fabricating blocks then.

[67goat]

Disassembly is not the legal standard. Permanent is. CWD has his opinion, but that's all it is. Something that requires tools and modification to remove are much more permanent than something removed in seconds with bare hands.

That being said, if riveting the mags need to be riveted while still a rebuild kit (meaning you need to know where the rivets go ahead of time). If you assemble first to figure it out, then you have manufactured an illegal mag.

[CWDraco]

Disassembly is not the legal standard. Permanent is. CWD has his opinion, but that's all it is. Something that requires tools and modification to remove are much more permanent than something removed in seconds with bare hands.

That being said, if riveting the mags need to be riveted while still a rebuild kit (meaning you need to know where the rivets go ahead of time). If you assemble first to figure it out, then you have manufactured an illegal mag.

My opinion just happens to be the exact opinion of the AG, DoJ and BoF...but you go ahead and think what you want. Oh and your "requiring tools" was specifically shot-down by the AG as NOT relevant to the laws "permanently altered" meaning.. But once again, it's a free country, go ahead and believe what you want.

My opinion stems from a document written and distributed by the AG. http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pd.../regs/fsor.pdf Read the WHOLE thing and think about it.

1- There is no way to legally remove the modification. This means finger power = nuclear blast. Tools, time and effort mean NOTHING.
2- If the modification CAN BE removed, it isn't permanent AND the modification was not done IAW the law which REQUIRES the modification to be permanent.
3- Nothing physical is permanent. All things can be undone and un-modified.
4- To state something has to be "permanently altered", means what a reasonable person thinks...IE...when it's done its done FOREVER..That's a function of TIME not a physical attribute.

Therefor the only way to comply with these 4 points is the magazine MUST not be a magazine when the modification is removed.

[SactoDoug]

A rivet IS a permanent alteration. My god man, our aircraft are permanently held together by rivets! If you are arguing that it is not because it can be drilled out, that is just absurd.

[SactoDoug]

Page 26

Number:

A4.15

Comment:

The definition of "Permanently Altered" says virtually nothing that would be useful to firearms owner, law enforcement or the courts. The department must describe what is a "permanent" alteration. For example, is "welding" deemed to be "permanent?" The statute does not require that "permanent" be
"irreversible". If a large capacity detachable magazine is configured by alteration to be identical to a lawful 10 round magazine as newly manufactured, is that acceptable? The definition as proposed is vague and has great potential for unnecessary confusion, arrest and prosecution. It requires revision. The department must state what procedures are "permanent" for the purposes of the new law.

Response:

The Department agrees the definition lacks clarity. The Department agrees that the word "irreversible" is not synonymous with the work "permanent".

[CWDraco]

Correct, now keep reading.

Irreversible is not synonymous with permanent.

...and reversing it, no matter how easy or hard is ILLEGAL.
That means permanently altered means when its done its done forever.

They agreed and removed the definition and offered the the common understanding, which is a time frame.

Under the law there is no constructive possession, but there is a failure to act in accordance with. If you have a pile of magazine parts, its legal even if its a pile of large capacity magazine parts. If you modify a magazine it must be done correctly...and that requires it to be permanent. Permanent without consideration of tools, effort or degree of skill.

There is only one way to meet this threshold. The magazine must not be able to be (ever, forever).. be a Large capacity magazine again...FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER.

If you can remove the modification while the magazine is a magazine...the modification was not legal. You failed and you still have a Large Capacity magazine.

[CWDraco]

A rivet IS a permanent alteration. My god man, our aircraft are permanently held together by rivets! If you are arguing that it is not because it can be drilled out, that is just absurd.

I was an Aircraft Mechanic. A rivet can get drilled out. It's NOT forever. Its a mechanical joining device. The law and the meaning of PA have zero to do with physical attributes. Glue, welding, epoxy, screws, nuts, bolts, ribs, that are all things that can be removed with effort and force..which means they are not permanent.

[SactoDoug]

I don't think it means what you think it means. How about you quote exactly what you are referring. I don't see anything that echos what you are posting.

Also, it is sufficiently understood by reasonable people that rivets are permanent. Its use in aerospace, construction, automotive, and marine applications is considered permanent.