Gun Show Warning (Reno)

[bwiese]

I think there's something more than meets the eye - I briefly read thru their poorly-written accounts.

And what sane person would NOT believe the ATF checks out gunshows?

What irritates me more is that Cal DOJ may be snooping around there, out of their jurisdiction, in a supposedly free state. I wonder if NV State Police know? Depts/ agencies do get touchy over jurisdictional questions...

While the BATF agents were likely cowboys, the approach he described by guy selling Grease Gun would smell 'fishy' to me. And while he says his wife has a Class 7 mfg license, there could have been terms of licensure violated when he picked up the grease gun - for all I know, he might be able to make one, but not buy another one. And nothing about paperwork filed, etc. Plus there are big differences for pre-May'86 (transferable) and post-May (LEO/dealer sample) guns. I suspect he didn't know about/follow a variety of rules - aren't Form 4s supposed to be filed for crossing state lines, etc.??

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It was mint, and looked unfired. I told Jessie that, as a dealer, I could buy one of these from other dealers for about $495 (which is the truth), so I offered him $500 cash, or $600 trade at the show the next day. He decided on the trade the next day.

Jessie asked me what I was going to do with the gun. I said I was going to run the numbers on it and make sure it was a "legit" gun. If it was, I was going to register it to my company and then just keep it in my collection. Jessie then took the gun from me, disassembled it, wrapped it in a towel, and put the parts in an ammo can for safe transport. I didn't watch him very closly from this point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right there lotsa questions. Taking possession of something he's not sure of 'being legit' is a big issue right there. The moment the guy started talking about illegal silencers, etc. he shoulda WALKED OUT and EXPRESSLY said, "You are asking me to engage in illegal activities. This conversation has ended. I am not interested in doing ANY business with you."

I note he has to rely on Fed. public defender. When you're dealing with this kinda business (at least w/the Class III guns) and can't afford a lawyer you prob shouldn't be in that biz. It's hard enough to be a regular FFL or even a small manufacturer. And even if the Fed defender is attentive, he's not gonna have the time to really drill thru ATF regs, etc. That's what guys like Jim Bardwell & Jim Jeffires are for.

He's not too bright, either - writing lots of information on his website that could/might be used against him. Even the worst public defender would counsel him not to do this: 1st rule is to S.T.F.U.!!!

His screed against Fascio could well be considered libelous/defamatory, too.

Probably a very nice guy, not too bright, that played fast & loose with NFA rules and his head is now spinning.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

[markalite@yahoo.com]

No suprise! I agree with "keep it leagal and you'll have no problem".

You keep thinking that these guys are agents, but they are probably just convicts that are reducing their own crimes by helping out the ATF net others.

If what this guy says is remotely true, he should have known better than to take possesion of the M3 Grease Gun without checking the numbers through ATF. 07 FFL or not, he still needs the paperwork for the exsisting MG before he takes possesion, Pre or Post 86 or dealer samples do not change that. Maybe he got to greedy wanting that mint Grease Gun and decided to dance around the law, but he isn't as "innocent" as he claims.

As to my expierence with the Reno show, the reason the dealers are so rude, is that I've noticed and influx of stupid buyers. Last time I was there, some guy walked up and dry-fired a revolver that clearly had a sign that said "Do Not Touch". Likewise, I've been told that the dealers are really getting their asses put under the microscope about any sales to Californians. Most won't even deal with you even if you have a C&R!

Gunbbig, the promoter may or may not be part of an investigation or lawsuit and may not be allowed to specificaly comment on the situation.

[gunbbig]

Ok guys, good discussion and many valid points.

However, let me ask how many of you attended the last couple of shows? Did you, or did you not notice the aura of suspicion and paranoia? Everywhere from dealers to private party, to buyers and sellers. It was so thick you could cut it with a knife.

Say whatever you want about the web link or those accusations, but if you attended the last couple of Reno shows you could not have possibly missed the strange air unless you were totally oblivious to your surroundings. It was very uncomfortable. Far too many people butting up close just to try and hear what you are saying while talking with a seller is just one example.

And what about the lack of response from Fascio to my direct e-mail? Doesn't that strike anyone as just a little odd? After all, I identified myself as a long standing patron. I have brought people and money to this show for a long time. You would think that if it was all a bunch of BS and totally unfounded, he would have at least protested, denied or something. What about his evasive statement: " I may recognize the name..." Hell, you either know the name or you don't. What do you mean you MAY recognize the name!

I'm not one of those who believe in conspiracy theories, but I know what I saw, felt, and sensed. Whatever it was, it stunk. And if you were there you probably know what I'm talking about.

[gunbbig]

Good point CW. You posted an answer before I even got done typing in the question!

[bwiese]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunbbig:
Ok guys, good discussion and many valid points.

However, let me ask how many of you attended the last couple of shows? Did you, or did you not notice the aura of suspicion and paranoia? Everywhere from dealers to private party, to buyers and sellers. It was so thick you could cut it with a knife. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was there last Nov, drove up Fri nite, went to show on Sat. and Sunday. I was there last March? April? 04 as well. I didn't make it there for August 04 show though - that was when the big bust(s) were as I recall.

It was crowded though I did not notice anything 'special' and I'm pretty aware of my surroundings.

Do you look 'different' or have an appearance that might somehow, rightly or wrongly, attract attention (biker, skinhead, etc.)?? Asking how to refill fake grenades??

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It was very uncomfortable. Far too many people butting up close just to try and hear what you are saying while talking with a seller is just one example. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe it was just crowded. I did have several newbie folks ask me about deals on AR15 stuff. Nothing illegal/ borderline - more like why is someone better or worse, who has best price, etc. But I think that's because they saw someone (me) that knows a bit about ARs. Nothing raised my hackles.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And what about the lack of response from Fascio to my direct e-mail? Doesn't that strike anyone as just a little odd? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would strike me as a bit odd if he actually DID reply to it. Most co's, esp small ones, can't deal with floods of emails and have to reserve that time for folks that pay the money (vendors) and folks that cost money (hotels, permits etc.) Hell, you can't even email gun co's like Colt or Ruger - everything must be phoned or mailed in!

And he's probably got a lot of other things to do - that's a big show! - than to listen to someone's (perceived) rantings. You probably hurt yourself further by including the link to 'Survival Enterprises' problems since it's apparent this S.E. guy is, well, "lost" and dug his own hole.

If the ATF asks for his cooperation, he's gonna give it. Guy will be friendly and ask to get "a felon with guns", etc. Fascio will give him a few tickets. Doubt if he'll give 'em a booth, risk of leaks, etc - the ATF can buy a booth at a show anytime out of petty office cash, under a different name; he won't say to Lou Fascio, "we're gonna entrap legit gunowners"!


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I identified myself as a long standing patron. I have brought people and money to this show for a long time. You would think that if it was all a bunch of BS and totally unfounded, he would have at least protested, denied or something. What about his evasive statement:
"I may recognize the name..." Hell, you either know the name or you don't. What do you mean you MAY recognize the name! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You flatter yourself on being remembered. Unless you're a larger vendor, celebrity or local or some big-time collector buyer, he sees so many faces he ain't likely gonna remember you - except possibly as some loony who'd complained about Survival Enterprise's idiocies.
And I can't tell you what I had for breakfast 2 days ago.

Again, it's a gunshow. Expect ATF to be around.
If something's paperfree and too good to be true, it is. Even with combined office support and a raft of informants they can't saturate that show. Max they had 4-5 guys there.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

[gunbbig]

Comments accepted Mr. Weise. But quite honestly you are way off base.

I am a Professional and my appearance reflects the same. So are my 2 buddies.

I have nothing to do with AR15 and grenade types. Not the biker skinhead type.

It wasn't just crowded. You may not be as perceptive as you think.

I don't flatter myself. I made no reference to him remembering me as I've never met him. I stated that I bring people and money to his show. Between me and my 2 closest friends we drop thousands of dollars every show for 5 years. Maybe that is small potatoes for you.

No I'm not a loony, and I made no complaints.

[bwiese]

More background from FreeRepublic thread:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1142214/posts

There appears to be some 'meat' here in article copy (quoted from a quote) appended below. While not supporting BATF or gun laws in general, he's not the poor whining choirboy being hassled by the ATF.
I am sure some aspects of the article are not reported correctly, but this sounds like ATF does have enough to put him away.

He shoulda known what he was doing. At they very best, he's stupid for hyper-poor recordkeeping, not being familiar with the laws, etc.

Survival Enterprise's Wilson even posted on this Freep thread,
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
...Unfortunately, all the firearms that were taken by the BATFE were going to be our retirement and further funding for our health business. Apparently, this is the manner in which our government "punishes" those who (they feel) make mistakes, or those of us that dare to speak out about the rampart corruption in our government.

I have been doing business as a Class 1 Gunsmith/Firearms Dealer for nearly 15 years. During this time I have requested that the ATF send out a Compliance Officer 4 different times. Their response was "we have no funding for training, just enforcement".

In English: we would rather you make mistakes, so we can bust you, as that's why we're here.

In my first meeting with the BATFE (after the episode in Reno), I was told that they "had their eye on me" since the Portland gun show in 1998.

SO WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY TELL ME THEN I WAS DOING SOMETHING WRONG SO I COULD CORRECT IT??
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, idiot, because that's not their job! Do you think cops follow bank robbers around and 'counsel' them not to rob? No, they try to bust 'em.

And go and ask a DA or a Fed prosecutor about some minutiae in the law. 99% of time they'll tell you to ask your own attorney. That's not just budgetary, it's the way our adversarial legal system has worked for the last 200+ years.

Furthermore, in most gov't agencies the compliance assistance and PR budgets are always smaller than the law-enforcement budget.

BATF doesn't have to manufacture evidence with guys like this: they send themselves to jail quite nicely on their own.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Gun Shop Owners Released Pending Idaho Trial in July

by Dave Turner, Staff Writer
Coeur d'Alene Press

The owners of a Post Falls gun shop were arrested by agents of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives early Friday on federal firearms charges.

Kurt Wilson, 52, and Angie Wilson, 53, owners of Survival Enterprises, 4368 W. Seltice, were released on their personal recognizance after making a first appearance later Friday morning. US Magistrate Judge Mikel Williams, appearing from Boise via video, set trail for July 13 in Coeur d'Alene.

The Wilsons were two of 14 suspects arrested in a five-state sweep.

"All of the defendants were charged with dealing firearms without a license, illegal sales of firearms, possession of unregistered firearms and possession fo firearms by prohibited persons," said the ATF in a press release.

A call to the store transferred to voicemail Friday afternoon and a message seeking comment was not returned. The Wilsons were charged with three counts in Idaho and eight in Nevada. No date was set for their trial there.

In Idaho, the Wilsons are charged with possession of unregistered firearms - an AR-15, a shortened 12-gauge shotgun and a machine gun.
Angie Wilson "had a license to possess all of those," said Idaho Assistant U.S. Attorney Nancy Cook. "If they were registered, it wouldn't have been illegal for them to have them."

Each of the counts carries a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison.
After they were photographed and fingerprinted by US Marshals, the couple were allowed to leave.

Cook said normally, those under felony indictment are barred from possession of firearms.

"We requested the court to waive that requirement so they could dispose of the inventory of fireman's and ammunition," Cook said.

Nevada prosecutors charged the Wilsons with eight counts of of firearm violations, most stemming from their attendance at the Big Reno gun show in August 2003.

The Wilsons were indicted on four counts of unlawful dealing at an out-of-state gun show; three counts of unlawful selling of a firearms to an out-of-state resident, which carries a maximum five years each, and one count of possession of a machine gun.

The ATF said the Wilsons were caught as part of "Operation Over the Line". Federal agents were working undercover at gun shows in Nevada the past year. Other arrests were made in Nevada, California, Utah, and Washington.

Nine of the suspects were arrested after search warrants were served Friday. Five others were already in custody as part of the investigation, said Daniel Bogden, U.S. attorney for Nevada.
"Undercover ATF agents purchased nearly 40 firearms using different Reno gun shows as the hub of activity," said John Torres, ATF special agent in charge of the San Francisco office.

"We also seized explosive at one residence in Reno today," including 10 blasting caps and 20 feet of detonating cord, he said.

[the Associated Press contributed to this report]
--------------------------------------------------------------------



Bill Wiese
San Jose

[bwiese]

Hi Gunbbig..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunbbig:
Comments accepted Mr. Weise. But quite honestly you are way off base.

I am a Professional and my appearance reflects the same. So are my 2 buddies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good. I am too.

I wasn't accusing, just wondering if you were somehow drawing attention to yourself. (One of my shooting buddies is a biker type w/tats and he's always very careful and polite during traffic stops.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have nothing to do with AR15 and grenade types. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, what's wrong with us AR15 types? &lt;BSEG&gt;

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It wasn't just crowded. You may not be as perceptive as you think. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe we were there at different times. Different stroks for different folks. I did warn one guy there about what I thought were too few US-mfg parts on a FAL clone and about Sec 922(r), and he just looked at me quizzically.

And I don't really care if anyone learns about my gun interests there or leans in to hear - hell, they might learn something

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Between me and my 2 closest friends we drop thousands of dollars every show for 5 years. Maybe that is small potatoes for you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, no, not at all. Keep up the good work!

My point is merely that Fascio makes his money selling TABLES and tickets. He's not a gun person per se. Only if things get really bad will he start worry about the actual attendees' happiness. He makes the same money from a guy selling pricey stuff at one table vs. a guy selling scrap parts at the next table. His goal is to keep vendors buying TABLES, and keeping folks coming in to see what's on those tables. History's proved guys like this right: you can treat people like crap and they still come back. What individuals buy or don't is, really, irrelevant to him. He's just putting buyers + sellers together in one comfortable venue.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
No I'm not a loony, and I made no complaints. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't accusing you of being loony. But when you quote sources without much credibility like Wilson screaming high murder from Survival Enterprises, you taint your query. (Read my other post - he's no choirboy.)

If I write to Procter & Gamble with a product complaint, they might listen to me. But if I aks why they promote devil worship with their logo, they're gonna throw my letter in the circular file.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

[gunbbig]

Thank you Mr. Weise for the clarification. I no longer feel like I was attacked.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking a solid position on this matter one way or the other. I don't know who is right or wrong in this situation. I agree with you that the accuser is no saint and you certainly have made some valid points.

If nothing else, this topic may help folks planning to attend this years' show to exercise a bit more caution.

[6172crew]

During that show where they busted a few guys I was walking past the class 3 guys table and he wasd telling his partner that a guy just tried to sell him a FA uzi. There was somthing going on at that show and both my cousin a nd I talked about it even before we knew 14 guys got nabbed.

[ivanimal]

At the last Reno show, I had a guy offer me a good deal on an FAL, even after I told him I was from CA and they were not legal there. He said they are legal here meaning Nevada. He did not push the point, just a bit too flippant for me. I dont and wont do anything to break the law. I did not think too much of it till reading this thread.

[Nylo]

As for me Im siding on the side of paranoia. You make one innocent error and you will be the one paying an attorney to get you out of it.

Too many anti-gun nuts and ambiguous firearms laws to be any other way.

J

[bwiese]

ivanimal...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ivanimal:
At the last Reno show, I had a guy offer me a good deal on an FAL, even after I told him I was from CA and they were not legal there. He said they are legal here meaning Nevada. He did not push the point, just a bit too flippant for me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you & I may have run into the same guy - this was a guy with the nice FAL with apparently all Imbel parts and just FirstSon hammer/trigger/sear + Tapco grip, who I warned about possible 922(r) domestic parts compliance issues and whose eyes rolled when I was telling him about that. He had one table selling mostly books, reloading stuff, etc. and was just selling the FAL as a one-off.

I wouldn't ever risk it of course, but I don't think this was any setup.

He prob just didn't know about selling guns to out-of-staters and mistakenly thought you as a Californian could just buy it as long as you kept it out of CA.

The fact the guy didn't 'force' the issue by really enticing you, dropping the price to a tempting level, etc. is a pretty good indicator, I think.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

[Bling Bling]

With any luck these "stings" will net other under cover cops and they can start their own department wars.

You have to be the one to know the laws cause you can't trust strangers to tell you. It's a risky situation when I find out that a friend is interested in being a gun owner. I want to be able to share my hobby with my friends, but I don't want them to get wrapped up in some stupid legal BS that lands them in trouble. It's just too easy for an HONEST man/woman to get caught up in some legal mess because some stupid legislator made a bad law.

[ivanimal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think you & I may have run into the same guy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That was him. As I said it did not hit me till this thread that he may or may not be a govt goon. I will look for him next month and ask him point blank. I was looking at his old Ideal reloading manuals, thats why I stopped. I am a sucker for old reload info.