Do you have a problem with this transaction?

[capitol]

I was in Traders today looking around and saw something that bothered me.
Two young men with several tattoos, wearing very loose fitting cloths, bling and attitude come walking in the store asking for the cheapest bullets they sell for a .38 revolver. I will climb out on a limb and say these two fellas won’t be using these rounds at Chabot.
So, Mr Sales guy says, "lets do it" and directs these thugs down to the ammo area behind the counter. He asks them 20 or 50 round box and if they want hollow points? Purchase completed and out they go.
Aahhh, lets do it!?!? Give me a break.
I don’t have the answers, but that transaction wasn't right.

[stillbigmac]

I like to sell 9mm to those guys with the 9 corto's

I wont help young guys find mags to pistols they don't know anything about. We make it a policy to require the gun come down here and we get some personal info... then without delivering any mag I get on the phone to a detective and have the numbers run..

Traders gets ALOT of business I wouldn't want.

You cant go around profiling now I buy LOTS of ammo I wont be using at Chabot.

[imported_wallysparx]

they paid for their ammunition fair and square just like you or i would, right?

at the range i go to, shooters come in all shapes and sizes. some have tatoos, some have loose fitting clothing, some have bling, and i'm sure some are *******s. sometimes any one of those qualities befits me on occasion, except for the tatoos (and usually not the bling). and i'm cheap and i like cheap ammo, as long as it goes bang and hits reasonably near where i point my guns. heaven forbid anyone ever try to prevent me from getting cheap ammo because of assumptions they've made.

[MadMex]

I earn a very comfortable 6 figure salary, have a Ph.D., work for a large international company, and play the game well while at work. After work and on weekends while working around my place I could easily pass for one of the border brothers for hire outside of the local Lowes or Home Depot parking lots. I routinely put up with people wondering if I can understand English and questioning my financial standing. It brings a **** eating grin to my face.

Profiling is human nature; I’m as guilty as the next guy. Profiling perceptions have the potential to be offensive as forum fodder. Reacting to perceptions built on profiling can be especially dangerous. As the saying goes, don’t judge the book by the cover.

[DELTA]

capitol & stillbigbac,

If the both of you have problems selling ammo to certain people based on what they might do, (remember now, the concept of a free society is not to ban something because it MIGHT be abused, but to prosecute AFTER the fact), how in the hell can you then blame the anti-gun folks for wanting to ban ALL guns.

Please re-read the 2nd Amendment, specially the part that says "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED".

All gun laws are unconstitutional (applies to ammos also). If you think there are felons who should not carry guns, remember these 2 things:

1) If the felon has served his time, he should have the right to own & bear arms (since we state that defense of life is a God given right & duty, then an ex-felon's life is worth as much as anyone elses, thus his right to defend himself.

2) If you think that the felon has not changed his ways, so he is not trustworthy with a gun and should not be out of jail, then it is the justice system that is broken, so fix the justice system instead of enacting gun laws.

[Guest]

First: Even though the description of these people makes them look like gang members, I doubt that a .38 revolver is the weapon of choice in gang crime; a compact and inexpensive pistol is probably much more commonly used. That being as it may ...

I posted another Trader story a few days ago, of someone breaking several laws (concealed carry of gun, brandishing...) while purchasing ammo at Traders. It does bring up a real question: Should a gun store not serve a customer, if they see that the customer is breaking laws, or have a good reason to suspect that the customer will break laws? No, I don't know the correct answer, and I hate ethical dilemmas like that.

On one hand, MadMex is completely correct: profiling based on cosmetic characteristics like clothing and hair is extremely dangerous, and can easily become overt discrimination. On the other hand, in many cases it is easy to guess that someone has bad intentions or is part of a bad group (gangs are an example, or meth cookers in the rural areas). And I agree with MadMex: My job during the week strongly resembles the description he gave of himself, but when I'm in my work-clothes, going to the lumberyard in the 30-year-old pickup truck, I look like one of the trolls who lives in a cave in the Santa Cruz mountains and occasionally has to go the civilization to obtain supplies. Little do people know that the mountain man in that wreck of a truck has credit cards with extremely high limits in his wallet. Our neighbor gets the cake in the "silicon valley executive under cover" department: he had to give the keynote address at some big electronics conference, and drove to the Fairmont hotel in San Jose in an army surplus HumVee, wearing torn and filthy military fatigues. He was intending to park the car there, have breakfast in the hotel restaurant, then change into his nice clothes, and give his speech. The hotel wouldn't let either his vehicle or him in, until they matched the name on his drivers license with the program of the conference. Much embarassment was then had by all.

[Guest]

Originally posted by stillbigbac:
... then without delivering any mag I get on the phone to a detective and have the numbers run..

That verifies that the gun is not known as stolen. But it does not verify that the person is the legal owner of the gun, nor that the person is legally entitled to own a gun (prior convictions, restraining orders, all that jazz). Would there be a way for a gun store to check this really quickly using the customers drivers license?

Sometimes I think it would be a good idea if gun stores quickly ran the drivers license of the customer before selling ammo, to verify that the customer is not under restrictions against having guns. It might curb sales to people known to be a problem, and it might help catch stupid criminals (for example, people on probation for violent crimes, under orders to stay away from all firearms-related stuff). At other times I think that this would be a horribly bad idea, and an intrusion into gun rights, with nasty potential for privacy issues. A difficult question.

BTW, I don't really care; most times when I buy ammo, I pay with a credit card anyhow, so if big brother wants to find out how much ammo I use, I make it easy for him.

[capitol]

Originally posted by DELTA:
1) If the felon has served his time, he should have the right to own & bear arms (since we state that defense of life is a God given right & duty, then an ex-felon's life is worth as much as anyone elses, thus his right to defend himself.

2) If you think that the felon has not changed his ways, so he is not trustworthy with a gun and should not be out of jail, then it is the justice system that is broken, so fix the justice system instead of enacting gun laws.

I disagree

[Guest]

Originally posted by DELTA:
capitol & stillbigbac,

If the both of you have problems selling ammo to certain people based on what they might do, (remember now, the concept of a free society is not to ban something because it MIGHT be abused, but to prosecute AFTER the fact), how in the hell can you then blame the anti-gun folks for wanting to ban ALL guns.

Please re-read the 2nd Amendment, specially the part that says "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED".

All gun laws are unconstitutional (applies to ammos also). If you think there are felons who should not carry guns, remember these 2 things:

1) If the felon has served his time, he should have the right to own & bear arms (since we state that defense of life is a God given right & duty, then an ex-felon's life is worth as much as anyone elses, thus his right to defend himself.

2) If you think that the felon has not changed his ways, so he is not trustworthy with a gun and should not be out of jail, then it is the justice system that is broken, so fix the justice system instead of enacting gun laws.

I do not think that most felons should be allowed to have firearms after they serve their time, but specific non-violent felons should be given a chance. Remember, getting caught carrying a baton is often considered a felony. There are some ridiculous laws out there, and some people are victims of them. We do not have a justice system, we have a legal system.

I remember when I was in junior high, I got threatened by a certain police officer who would tell me what I was doing would be considered a felony. He was just trying to get me to confess, but I have no doubt that they will hit you with as many charges as they can. Some wannabe mexican gang members told him that I had explosives and stuff to cover themselves after they set something off before school...I ended up getting patted down against the wall like a criminal...on two separate occasions for different non-sense reasons.

Him: "Do you have any guns, knives or explosives on you?"

Me: "No, who told you that."

Him: "Reliable sources...I'm going to have to search you."

He kept questioning me, and I could tell he was dissapointed when he didn't find anything. Imagine if these "reliable sources" got lucky and I had a lighter or something in my pocket for whatever reason. That would be enough evidence to screw me. I narrowly escaped serious punishment a few times in my school years, each time for something ridiculous.

There are police officers like that everywhere, just looking for a reason to bust someone. If you get slapped with a felony charge and some "reliable witnesses" are instrumental to your conviction, you can be screwed out of your rights. I think that it is usually possible to distinguish between real criminals and those screwed by the system.

[DELTA]

Originally posted by capitol:

I disagree

It does not matter if you disagree. I personally do not like the idea of felons having guns either, but either you believe in the Constitution OR YOU DON'T. It is as simple as that.

Consider for a minute, when this country was first founded, we only had 3 Federal felonies. Now we have thousands.

Let me put it to you this way. Let's say you or your accountant make a mistake on your tax returns. If the IRS comes after you and you are convicted of tax evasion (a felony), then you are barred from EVER owning a gun.



I don't see you smiling now.

[imported_kantstudien]

Well, it is always a good idea to never sell ammo to someone who asks to only buy "one bullet."

[imported_dadoody]

I profile all the time. It works in my favor though, because I look like a squirrelly asian. This image has served me for better than not.

[MadMex]

Originally posted by >_>:
I profile all the time. It works in my favor though, because I look like a squirrelly asian. This image has served me for better than not.

Don’t take me wrong. As previously noted, I routinely profile others. It’s a protection mechanism inherent in all of us. However, it takes additional data for me to move my behavior from yellow to orange. Until then, I treat every individual with the dignity and respect I expect from them.

[stillbigmac]

Originally posted by DELTA:
capitol & stillbigbac,

If the both of you have problems selling ammo to certain people based on what they might do, (remember now, the concept of a free society is not to ban something because it MIGHT be abused, but to prosecute AFTER the fact), how in the hell can you then blame the anti-gun folks for wanting to ban ALL guns.

Please re-read the 2nd Amendment, specially the part that says "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED".

All gun laws are unconstitutional (applies to ammos also). If you think there are felons who should not carry guns, remember these 2 things:

1) If the felon has served his time, he should have the right to own & bear arms (since we state that defense of life is a God given right & duty, then an ex-felon's life is worth as much as anyone elses, thus his right to defend himself.

2) If you think that the felon has not changed his ways, so he is not trustworthy with a gun and should not be out of jail, then it is the justice system that is broken, so fix the justice system instead of enacting gun laws.

Sound really nice. Must be great living in a bubble. If I sell ammo to some gangbanger that making obviose overtures about shooting other people I am liable..
Please feel free to spend every penny you ever earned starting a firearms business, then preach to me about the second.. I have to cover my but, to keep out of civil court.
If I help some ****head get a magazine to his stolen pistol so he can carry it in his pocket am I helping anyone in my comunity?

I am supposed to profile. Are you sugesting I should have allowed the straw sale an Arian wanted me to complete? We dont live in a utopia. I'm no virgin myself. I don't turn away anyone because of the color of their skin or where in the world they are from, but I do make judgment calls. I had an arab guy come in my store, looking for rifle scopes. He was about to get on a plane to pakistan.. do I sell him a scope... NO! Did I sell a 1911 to the Yeminees fella that ran a liquer store in Oakland hell yeh!

Read again, we don't live in a utopia. Do you believe that even most, some, of the felons charged with violent crimes are rehabilitated? HA, mst of these guys come out of the can better criminals.
I dont enact gunlaws. I dont support gunlaws.. I do support the people in my comunity buy not helping dumb yung men from hurting them accidently or intentionaly.

[DELTA]

stillbigbac,

I personally have nothing against profiling, neither did I state that you should not. Profiling is what keeps us alive. If you profile it does not mean that you hate someone, all it means is that you are looking out for number one, you.

Having said that, neither do I live in utopia. All I said was that vast majority of felons who are caught are repeat offenders. Sometimes they have rap sheets that stretch for yards long. The problem is with the justice system that lets them out to start with. So instead of fixing the problem where it really is, people want to ban guns.

I also live in the real world, knowing full well that you have to abide by gun laws even if you do not believe that they are constitutional. The reason I blew up to start with was that your & capitols original post sounded like the gun owners who keep talking about how it is ok to have some gun laws.
If I got the wrong impression, I do apologize.

You have to do, what you have to do to protect your *ss from the laws of this lawsuit happy society, but please keep fighting for the cause.