Pre-Ban AR Question

[boriii]

This post is actually for my dad who's decided to sell off his guns he's had in storage for years. He happens to have a pre-ban AR and he was wondering what his options were of selling the gun or getting rid of it. Is it possible to transfer a pre-banned gun to someone else here in California?

[G-forceJunkie]

Define "Preban", we have gone through several. All that matters is if it is an assault weapon, and if your dad registered it when he needed to. If it is a registered assault weapon, he can sell it to a CA FFL that holds an assault weapons permit, or he can remove it from California (then sell it), or he can give it to the police and let them crush it. He cannot transfer it to someone in California.

[boriii]

It is an assault weapon and it was registered in the late 80's when he needed to. Would a CA FFL even want to buy it since they wouldn't be able to do much with it either?

[freonr22]

Define "Preban", we have gone through several. All that matters is if it is an assault weapon, and if your dad registered it when he needed to. If it is a registered assault weapon, he can sell it to a CA FFL that holds an assault weapons permit, or he can remove it from California (then sell it), or he can give it to the police and let them crush it. He cannot transfer it to someone in California.

To be clear, you are referring to the registered if need be lower. Not the upper, internals or stock

[Chaos47]

Edit to add as I see you posted while I was writing:
I do not believe there was a CA registration period in the late 80's....

Really theres no such thing as a Preban in CA.

He either sent in the paper work and made it a registered assault weapon (RAW)

Or he didn't send in the paper work and has an illegal assault weapon

Or he made it compliant (Banned by name can not be made complaint unless they where made a RAW)



If he sent in the paperwork to make it at RAW (and no not at the time of purchase, we are talking separate paperwork and fee that he mailed in himself):

If it is not banned by name he can make it compliant ie a magazine lock or featureless and then have it registered.

Or if it is banned by name it can be sold out of state with the aid of a FFL with an Assault Weapon Permit.

Or if it is banned by name he can buy a new Off List Lower (OLL) and transfer all the parts on the new lower. He can then sell the lower out of state with the aid of a FFL with an Assualt Weapon Permit. Or have it destroyed.

Or he can turn it into the police, not a good option.


If he did not register it as a RAW.
He is in possession of an illegal assault weapon. Mere possession is a felony.
If it is not banned by name it can be made complaint ie a magazine lock or featureless.
Please read the flow chart: http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

If it is banned by name, either send the whole rifle or take it apart and rebuild it onto a OLL and have the lower sent out of state by an FFL with an Assault Weapon Permit

[G-forceJunkie]

It is an assault weapon and it was registered in the late 80's when he needed to. Would a CA FFL even want to buy it since they wouldn't be able to do much with it either?

Yes, that rifle is probably worth over $2,000 right now when sold outside of California. The hard part is going to be finding an CA FFL with an Assault Weapons Permit to handle it. Another option is for your father to drive it himself out of california. Then he would be braking no california laws if he sold it through any old FFL in another state. Find a buyer in Arizona or Nevada, meet them at an Arizona or Nevada FFL and let the buyer do the paperwork there.

[Quiet]

CA's first AWB (make/model) went into effect 06-01-1989.
Firearms that were effected needed to be registered with CA DOJ prior to 01-01-1991.

Under CA laws/regulations, there is no such thing as a "pre-ban".
It's an assault weapon, registered assault weapon or not an assault weapon.

[sigstroker]

Yes, that rifle is probably worth over $2,000 right now when sold outside of California. The hard part is going to be finding an CA FFL with an Assault Weapons Permit to handle it. Another option is for your father to drive it himself out of california. Then he would be braking no california laws if he sold it through any old FFL in another state. Find a buyer in Arizona or Nevada, meet them at an Arizona or Nevada FFL and let the buyer do the paperwork there.

That much hassle is unnecessary.

Put it on gunbroker or auctionarms or gunsamerica or ar15.com or wherever for sale. He can sell it to anyone not in CA, NYC, etc. When he makes the sale and gets his money, take it to the post office or UPS (Fedex blows) and ship it to the buyer's FFL holder. The process is described in detail on the gunbroker site.

easy peasy

[Quiet]

That much hassle is unnecessary.

Put it on gunbroker or auctionarms or gunsamerica or ar15.com or wherever for sale. He can sell it to anyone not in CA, NYC, etc. When he makes the sale and gets his money, take it to the post office or UPS (Fedex blows) and ship it to the buyer's FFL holder. The process is described in detail on the gunbroker site.

easy peasy

RAWs are not exempt from CA laws prohibiting the "offering or exposing for sale" of an assault weapon.

Posting an online WTS ad, is offering/exposing for sale and it is technically a Felony to do so & grounds for confiscation of the RAW.

CA FFL dealer with assault weapons permit is exempt from this.

Hence the reason, why it must be physically taken out-of-state to be sold or it be sold through a CA FFL dealer with an assault weapons permit.

[killmime1234]

RAWs are not exempt from CA laws prohibiting the "offering or exposing for sale" of an assault weapon.

Posting an online WTS ad, is offering/exposing for sale and it is technically a Felony to do so & grounds for confiscation of the RAW.

CA FFL dealer with assault weapons permit is exempt from this.

Hence the reason, why it must be physically taken out-of-state to be sold or it be sold through a CA FFL dealer with an assault weapons permit.

I would think putting a large disclaimer on gunbroker saying "not for sale in CA" should be sufficient enough effort to a judge to offer it for sale without offering it for sale "in California."

[dieselpower]

Gunbroker isnt CA... therefore while prudent to say, not for sale in CA, you dont have to as long as you dont sell it to a ca resident.

The law was written before the internet existed. Its the same as placing an ad to sell it in the NY Times... and someone in CA subscribes to the NY Times... you can't be arrested for selling it in CA just because the ad was seen by a person in CA.

Without me searching...I am not even sure "offering to sell" is against the law as it relates to AWs. I believe that is just LCM...and only if you offer to a non-permit holder.

Its 100% LEGAL to sell to a person who is authorized to buy... therefor an "offering to sell" charge is nearly impossible to prove without a non-authorized buyer.

This is why its 100% legal for me to place an ad here to sell my LCMs... BUT I would need to add "LCM permit holders and LEO only" in the ad since this "could be" considered CA. Again the whole internet thing rears its ugly head...

[Beelzy]

First, find a FFL with an "assault weapon permit". For example Wild Bill's guns in Elk Grove.
Fee is about $150 for transfer out of state. The gun can not be sold to anyone in Calif.

Then list gun and sell it. You take the gun to the permit holding FFL and they do the paperwork
for you and give you a copy. Then you use the info on it to fill out the No Longer in Possession
Form available online from DOJ and send it in. The DOJ will then send updated RAW paperwork.

Remember though, the FFL has to be an Assault Weapon permit holder.

[Ribkick]

That much hassle is unnecessary.

Put it on gunbroker or auctionarms or gunsamerica or ar15.com or wherever for sale. He can sell it to anyone not in CA, NYC, etc. When he makes the sale and gets his money, take it to the post office or UPS (Fedex blows) and ship it to the buyer's FFL holder. The process is described in detail on the gunbroker site.

easy peasy

Gunbroker isnt CA... therefore while prudent to say, not for sale in CA, you dont have to as long as you dont sell it to a ca resident.

The law was written before the internet existed. Its the same as placing an ad to sell it in the NY Times... and someone in CA subscribes to the NY Times... you can't be arrested for selling it in CA just because the ad was seen by a person in CA.

Without me searching...I am not even sure "offering to sell" is against the law as it relates to AWs. I believe that is just LCM...and only if you offer to a non-permit holder.

Its 100% LEGAL to sell to a person who is authorized to buy... therefor an "offering to sell" charge is nearly impossible to prove without a non-authorized buyer.

This is why its 100% legal for me to place an ad here to sell my LCMs... BUT I would need to add "LCM permit holders and LEO only" in the ad since this "could be" considered CA. Again the whole internet thing rears its ugly head...

With all this knowledge and advice, please be the test cases for us all.

A prudent man would not list it for sale because IT'S AN ADMISSION OF OWNING IT. Which is, in itself, a felony if not registered as a RAW (and I don't see anything from the OP saying it was registered as a RAW, just that it was registered).

OP, follow the Good advice and seek out an FFL licensed to handle assault weapons sales/transfers. Don't be a chump.

[Quiet]

Penal Code 30600
(a) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends any assault weapon or any .50 BMG rifle, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 for four, six, or eight years.

[dieselpower]

Penal Code 30600
(a) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends any assault weapon or any .50 BMG rifle, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 for four, six, or eight years.

Yes, I agree its not wise but for a totally different reason then you state. The law would read as;
Any person who, within this state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, any ....blah blah blah.

Its a conditional law. If you satisfy the conditions, you can be charged with the crime.

So the point would be if its legal to be a person who lives in the State and sells, no matter where you sell it.

If you are trying to say the condition, "within the State" is related to the person, then no matter where the sale is then its illegal.

If you think this statement means the act, then its the act "within the State" that meets the condition of law.

Law are written against acts. The conditions can be personal, but in those cases the condition would be directly aimed at the person in the language.

The phrase would read; Any person in the State...blah blah blah. Note the removal of the word "who" changes the conditional definition of "within the State".

So I agree its prudent to add a disclaimer, "not for sale in CA", but as long as the focus of the advertisement isnt CA, then its just a CYA. Advertising HERE would be different. This is a CA gun forum so any ads for LCM or AWs should state "all CA laws apply."

BUT.....

Now I agree and didnt realize the law said, KEEPS FOR SALE. This is an act that if done within the State is illegal. Therefore
...
Any person who, within this State, keeps for sale is guilty of the crime. Stated this way there is no way to keep an AW that you are selling in CA unless you meet one of the exclusions.

So I agree with you, I was wrong, but you bolded the wrong part of the law.