Had to "Clear" my Backyard Last Night....now a Question

[goodlookin1]

How nice. However, have you had any training in clearing? Some Force-on-Force training perhaps?

In several classes at Gunsite I've made multiple trips through shoot-houses and outdoor simulators, both in daylight and at night using a flashlight, as well as had a very illuminating taste of Force-on-Force training. That was a good deal more relevant to this sort of question than my 30+ years practicing law (which in the case of my practice involved a good deal of risk management).

And as an instructor I've had opportunities to talk and work with folks who were a good deal better trained than I and had a good deal more experience than I. Have you?

Remember that things worked out well for you because, consistent with the odds, no one was there. But if you had drawn the short straw, and there had been a Bad Guy there willing to fight, what would have happened?

And if you really believed that the odds were so slim that there'd be an intruder, why did you take a gun? I submit that if there was enough chance that there was a Bad Guy around that it was worthwhile to take a gun, there was enough chance of that to warrant staying inside and considering other ways to assess matters.

In risk management one must consider both the odds and the nature of the risk. If an outcome, even if highly unlikely, is catastrophic, one still wants to find ways to avoid that outcome.

One should be considering ways to assess a situation without exposing himself or family to a risk of a catastrophic result, even if that risk is slim.

If you're ambushed, it will be a fight in which you will be highly, probably hopelessly, disadvantaged. And an adversary you're looking for doesn't need to know the ground. He just needs to know you're coming and then lie in wait. And of course with your light on, he'll know you're coming and from where.

How do you know?

In any case, it doesn't take much knowledge of tactics or much in the way of skills to ambush someone. And how much knowledge of tactics do you actually have? What fighting skills do you actually have? What kind of training have you had?

Also, an intruder might not have much in the way of formal training, but if he has any experience in crime it's likely that he's lived in an environment in which he's become much better conditioned and adapted to violence and physical confrontation than you probably are. He might also be desperate and desensitized to pain by drugs.

Again, things worked out for you because no one was there.

I get it. You're a professional. A trained, real life operator. Good on you. If you're thinking I'm going to argue a "this is how much better I am than you" thing, you're wrong. I have nothing to prove. I will even answer your questions:

- I am not a trained operator, skilled at clearing a house, as you apparently are.
- I am not a professional who has studied and practice every tactic known to Chris Costa, et al.
- I do not have 30 years of practicing law under my belt.

There, I said it. I am in no way trained, in no way an expert, or anything even close. I'm your average joe who understands average tactics and is an average shooter...but by God, I'm gonna do the best I can with what I have and know to protect my own. I never said I do things 100% the right way, nor did I say I 100% know better than you in this situation. But you need to get over yourself and understand that the average man cant do years worth of training, nor spend tens of thousands of dollars prepping to clear houses, backyards, or anything of the sort......just because I might come across that 0.01% chance that a group of professional criminals could out-tactic me.

I will admit that I went outside being very cautious and suspect, and yes....brought protection. But when I saw the wind and saw that my noisy gate was still closed, I didnt really feel I needed protection at that point but already had it with me. And another thing: I wasnt out there shining my light the whole time: I used a quick burst when I needed to, that's it. And yes, it worked out well for me that no one was there. I hope no one is ever actually "there" in these kinds of situations. But you assume that if someone was there, that it would have gone "bad for me". I can only assume you are speaking in tactical terms because you didnt mention anything about lawful consequences. I'll say it straight up: You dont know what would have happened. You dont know who I would have been up against and you dont know their skill set, and you dont know my ability under stress. Maybe if I was going up against a trained professional like you, then sure....I'd absolutely be disadvantaged and probably wouldnt turn out so well for me. But again, how many hardcore military/LEO trained professional criminals are there out there breaking into occupied homes at 10:45PM on a Tuesday night? Honestly, I think you're overestimating the average person you might come across. I know that sounds bad to underestimate your potential opponent, but you have to be realistic here and say that most people, even criminals, are not quite on the up and up with tactics. Watch any video of a robbery from a bunch of thugs: Take the most recent one where an 80 year old man with a pistol had 4 losers high tailing it out of the internet cafe, tripping over each other trying to get out the door. THAT is the typical response of many/most burglars.

Dont get me wrong though: I am 100% pro training. Every opportunity to practice or train should be taken. You have the luxury of that being your profession. I dont. Even in light of my response here, I have taken what you and others have said and thought about it and might do it differently, should there be a next time. I have an open mind and desire to learn more, so please dont think that I am saying that your tactics are worthless. But I have to say that the way you come across makes you sound like you think you're God's gift to the tactical world. Maybe I read too much into your post, I dont know. But when you reply with things like, "I've done XX, have you? I trained at XX, have you?" and "How nice", it really gives off the impression that you've put yourself on a really high pedestal. Please, by all means share the knowledge you have, but do it in a constructive way that doesnt belittle the poster and prop yourself up, or simply to win an argument. Again, I hope I am just misunderstanding you.

[voiceofreason]

fiddletown is simply sharing his opinion and experience

this is a public forum board and IMO it's a GOOD thing to hear a lot of differing opinions

he's simply sharing HIS experience and what he's learned from his courses and experience

I nearly posted the other night about MY Simunitions experience. Clearing anything is high risk. Clearing solo is very, very high risk IMO. As the "bad guy in wait", I NEVER lost. Because I'm so badass? No. Because the defender has the advantage.

I know you're the OP, and we can all respect that this was YOUR experience. Thank you for sharing it and bring up a good topic of discussion.

Let's not take internet forum boards too seriously. We all know the other guy on the other end of the internet is wrong.

You OBVIOUSLY should have taken a kitchen knife instead of a gun. Easier to defend in court.

(p.s.- I'm done playing moderator)

[jyo]

The front of my house is well protected by metal security door and metal coverings over the only approachable front window---the other three sides of my house are enclosed by six foot high chain-link fence---inside the fence are my two rescue dogs---both 60 and 80 pound Pittbulls (very smart, very loyal, they regard the house and yard as "their" property). And of course, if I am home at the time, there's me and the wife and a few firearms. None of the above will make your property "bullet-proof"---but it does reduce the chances they will choose your house---they probably will just move on...

[Bete Noire]

I clear my yard with a good CO2 fire extinguisher...the burning means it's working

[Lone_Gunman]

Don't go looking for trouble. Ask George Zimmerman why. If you don't want people telling you that you were wrong I would suggest not posting about clearing your back yard on CalGuns.

[bruss01]

I'm happy to call the cops and let them deal with cop matters - IF I know there's a matter requireing the services of a cop.

Going outside to confront a bad guy is something I'll leave to the cop.

But that's not what happened here. There was a bit of wind, a bit of debris, and an unidentified "noise". No voices, no footsteps, no flashlight beams where there oughtn't be any, and no human-ish sillouettes. If there'd been ANY of those, our intrepid homeowner would have been well-advised to dial 911 and have an officer come and check out the situation.

Seriously? Every time a cat or a raccoon or a wind-blown branch makes some kind of unidentified noise we're calling out the cops? Keep your knickers on, nervous nellie! I agree, when checking out an odd noise at night it's prudent to have a gun and a flashlight on you, just like it's prudent to have those things next to your bed each night. You're not going expecting trouble, you're going ready in case trouble emerges unexpectedly. IMHO that's VERY legally defensible.

Now, if you heard voices and footsteps, and caught a glimpse of a human-ish sillouette somewhere in your back yard when no one has an expectation of being there... then calling 911 is definitely preferable to charging out there with gun in hand to confront the tresspassers.

There is an area called "good judgment" that lies in between the "nervous nellies" who cower trembling under their bedsheets dialing 911 every time the wind blows a leaf up against a window - and the reckless Rambos who feel like they want to personally bust whoever dared to set foot on their property after dark, regardless of whether it's the repairman come back for the pair of pliers he forgot or a chainsaw massacre menace there to anihilate his whole family. I think most of us are capable of living in that "good judgment" zone without being overly timid or overly reckless.

This is one of the reasons people have dogs. Dogs are VERY GOOD at screening out the irrelevant noises from the relevant ones. And they're also very good at sending a message to trespassers - "Don't come back!". A dog does not have to be attack-trained in order to divert a bad guy's attention or to indicate to you where that person is with it's superior ears and nose. Cave-men were finding these canine traits useful 14,000 years ago when all those fancy training and tactics didn't exist. And let's be realistic... you're not going up against a Navy Seal in your back yard if there's anyone there at all... you're much more likely to find a teenager up to mischief, or a drunk who thinks he just got "home", or a tweaker looking for something not nailed down to pawn for his next fix. Maybe the random guy who got into a bunch of bath salts and doesn't even know where he is. Your cautious advance (OP) noting the gate was closed, nothing else seems amiss, was spot-on IMHO. Any indicator of human presence would have been a change of situation from "unknown noise" to "probable human presence" and at that point the gun is there to protect you as you make a careful and hasty retreat towards safety and the phone. Most criminals aren't rocket scientists that will outsmart you, or gymnasts that will out-flank you. They're not Russian mafia with silencers on their guns there to end you for some percieved slight. Most criminals are sub-optimal human beings in most regards, that's WHY they're criminals instead of having their shizzle together like the rest of us. Take a look at "Cops" or "True stories of the Highway Patrol" to see the average criminal's behavior. Their dangerous, sometimes, but better than us? (arched eyebrow) Rarely.

I think you did all right. I would have done the same - except with my 85 lb Doberman out there doing something to earn his kibble. And my wife backing me up with the heavy artillery and the phone... just in case.

[goodlookin1]

fiddletown is simply sharing his opinion and experience

this is a public forum board and IMO it's a GOOD thing to hear a lot of differing opinions

he's simply sharing HIS experience and what he's learned from his courses and experience

I nearly posted the other night about MY Simunitions experience. Clearing anything is high risk. Clearing solo is very, very high risk IMO. As the "bad guy in wait", I NEVER lost. Because I'm so badass? No. Because the defender has the advantage.

I know you're the OP, and we can all respect that this was YOUR experience. Thank you for sharing it and bring up a good topic of discussion.

Let's not take internet forum boards too seriously. We all know the other guy on the other end of the internet is wrong.

You OBVIOUSLY should have taken a kitchen knife instead of a gun. Easier to defend in court.

(p.s.- I'm done playing moderator)

Not sure where the idea that I'm adverse to constructive criticism came from. I am certaiy not above reproach. I fully agree that sharing ideas and thoughts are really what this forum is about. I even mentioned in my response to FT that I have been listening to responses and opinions.....his included. I just wasn't thrilled with the way he approached it.

Whatever though, you can't lurk and post here for long before realizing that you better have thick skin around here if you plan on stickin around. And there's no hard feelings on my end at all.

And I want to be clear that I was not saying he was definitely wrong. I personally think he may not understand the whole process from start to finish, and all the details surrounding the incident. I think if he were a fly on the wall, he may feel differently about the steps I took and logic/reasoning for going out there. I think bruss01 pretty much summed up my feelings on the matter 100%.

[fiddletown]

...I get it. You're a professional. A trained, real life operator....

Nah. Just an old, fat retired lawyer who likes guns and shooting, some competition (USPSA and trapshooting), trying to learn and improve and teaching. I'm a long way from being "an operator", but I have learned a few things.

...I am in no way trained, in no way an expert, or anything even close. I'm your average joe who understands average tactics and is an average shooter...but by God, I'm gonna do the best I can with what I have and know to protect my own....

That's fine and commendable. But the more you know, the more you can do, and the better you can do, the better your best will be; and the better you'll be able to protect your own.

Good intentions are all very well, and sometimes good intentions and some luck will get you through. Sometimes, however, good intentions and luck might not be enough. You can't know in advance what your problem will be, so you can't know in advance what you might need to do to solve it. The more you know, the more you can do, and the better you can do it, the luckier you're likely to be.

...understand that the average man cant do years worth of training, nor spend tens of thousands of dollars prepping to clear houses, backyards, or anything of the sort...

That's very true. It will be up to each of us to decide how prepared he wants to trouble himself to be. Of course as Louis Pasteur said, "Chance favors the prepared mind."

The harsh reality is that what you don't know you don't know, even if you have a good reason for not knowing it. Of course how badly an absence of knowledge or training in a particular skill might hurt you will depend on what you're trying to do.

So let's consider solo clearing. First, it's a very dangerous activity because of the risk of being ambushed. It's been demonstrated over and over again, in training exercises and real life hostilities, that the ensconced adversary has a significant tactical advantage over the guy who's looking for him. Of course it's not dangerous if no one is there, but how do you know and decide. That's kind of the next point.

Because solo clearing is very risky even for someone with excellent and extensive training, how risky is it for someone without that training. Again, he might have some excellent reasons for not being trained in the skill, but still, what he doesn't know he doesn't know. So maybe someone who thinks he may need to do some solo clearing might want to consider his priorities and move getting some training up a few notches.

On the other hand, if you don't have to go out to find a loved one who might be in jeopardy, the recommended procedure is to round up the family, stay put in a place of safety, observe and wait. That's all pretty straightforward and simple. It doesn't take much training to round up the family, stay put in a place of safety (armed of course), observe and wait. All you really need to know is that is the preferred tactic. And by observing and waiting there's a good chance that you will either be able to reach a pretty firm conclusion that whatever caught your attention is benign, or that there really is a threat. If there is a threat, you'll need to decide how to handle it; and of course you'll be on the telephone with the police.

...I think you're overestimating the average person you might come across. I know that sounds bad to underestimate your potential opponent, but you have to be realistic here and say that most people, even criminals, are not quite on the up and up with tactics...

And you're underestimating the value of surprise and ambush. It doesn't take a Special Forces maven to hide, wait for you to pass and then jump on you or hit you over the head with a piece of lead pipe. That's the kind of thing cheap crooks have been doing for thousands of years (or longer).

...Watch any video of a robbery from a bunch of thugs: Take the most recent one where an 80 year old man with a pistol had 4 losers high tailing it out of the internet cafe, tripping over each other trying to get out the door....

And that illustrates my point. The crooks were caught by surprise. They were, in effect, ambushed.

...You have the luxury of that being your profession. ...

But it's not my profession. It's my hobby, but one I take fairly seriously.

...Maybe I read too much into your post, I dont know. But when you reply with things like, "I've done XX, have you? I trained at XX, have you?" and "How nice", it really gives off the impression that you've put yourself on a really high pedestal....

However, let me remind you that you started by challenging my opinion and supporting yours by, among other things, trotting out your credentials (post 36, emphasis added):

...And to Fiddletown who thinks it was serious tactical error, maybe you're right. But I dont believe so. The chances of coming up on a group of professional burglars who arent just a bumbling bunch of thug-life or crankster losers but actually have tactics and skill is slim to none. I majored in business and had a focus of risk management in college: I weighed the factors and given everything that I had already investigated, the chances were so slim...

You advanced your college major as a basis for your opinion and decision. I merely outlined my background and the bases for my opinion. And I do submit that my experience and training are reasonably solid bases for my opinions.

...Please, by all means share the knowledge you have, but do it in a constructive way that doesnt belittle the poster and prop yourself up, or simply to win an argument. Again, I hope I am just misunderstanding you.

And yes, I'm blunt and direct. If you feel belittled by my bluntness and directness, I'm sorry. However, I am not responsible for your feelings.

[TAK]

You shouldn't even clear the inside of your own home alone much less outside when it's dark.

Get floodlights and open up a window when you hear a noise. Even if the person(s) were armed and robbing your house they aren't going to shwack you if you look/peak out a window. The point of a robbery is rarely to murder someone and if they planned on killing you they would just bust in a window or a door, no point in being sneaky if they are about to shoot someone. Think of it from a logical, human point of view. Robbers don't want confrontation your house isn't special why risk jail/dying when you could run away and hit a house 2 blocks down?

[TeddyBallgame]

hmmm, if im the real bad guy, if i see a 'light', such as a flashlight, or, mounted rail light, you've just given me the zone to shoot for, that's the way i see it...as for training, it takes very little to position yourself in a familiar spot, in the dark, in your home and just listen...that will tell you all you need to know, plus, you know your house and where everything is, so moving around in the dark is more troublesome for the BG

no matter how dark my home is at night, I can still see pretty good, advantage me...i dont even see where loads of 'training' comes into play, unless you're going up against Steven Seagal, because he never loses, so, i still say, if you're sure there is an intrusion happening, call 911, get in a spot where you can't get blindsided, and wait

if lethal force ever does come into play, you'll have everything on your side, legally

[TANK1135]

If you stepped out the side door and shined a bright light down the side yd didn't you give up your position to the perp in the back?He could hide in the back and pick you off as you came around.I wouldn't of went outside but if I did I would have let my eyes adjust to the dark and then checked the yd with my light and gun.I use led lights that are bright enough ti see but not blind ya.

[BillCA]

Bruss01 nails it down with this:

There is an area called "good judgment" that lies in between the "nervous nellies" who cower trembling under their bedsheets dialing 911 every time the wind blows a leaf up against a window - and the reckless Rambos who feel like they want to personally bust whoever dared to set foot on their property after dark, regardless of whether it's the repairman come back for the pair of pliers he forgot or a chainsaw massacre menace there to annihilate his whole family. I think most of us are capable of living in that "good judgment" zone without being overly timid or overly reckless.

I think there is an over-emphasis on the probability you'll meet some utterly vicious killer outside or someone who will risk everything to attack you. Such as...

hmmm, if im the real bad guy, if i see a 'light', such as a flashlight, or, mounted rail light, you've just given me the zone to shoot for, that's the way i see it.

Probability says that 90% of some trespasser in your yard is a thief looking for something to steal or a burglar looking to steal from inside the home. Most burglaries occur during daytime while thefts from outside can happen any time. The majority of these people base their work on stealth so as to avoid detection and capture. Hence, they are more likely to flee when it appears someone is checking the grounds.

Of the other 10%, it's more likely than not the person is a peeping tom or a simple trespasser, perhaps using your yard as a shortcut. That leaves us with perhaps 2% who might be up to other acts that could include violence. I'd only entertain this notion if there had been prior violent attacks at night against residents.

Certainly any criminal can turn violent if he thinks he will be captured. The few prowlers who may be homicidal psychopaths are few. Even then, they know that gunfire will alert many people and result in many cops (even FLIR equipped helicopters) converging in the area.

That "bump in the night" may see me taking a handgun and light to investigate. The gun is there for defensive use in the event there really is someone around and who becomes a menace. If I hear voices or gun noises, calling 911 is the first order, followed by hunkering down with the 12-gauge and waiting for the cavalry.

[fiddletown]

...Probability says that 90% of some trespasser in your yard is a thief looking for something to steal or a burglar looking to steal from inside the home. Most burglaries occur during daytime while thefts from outside can happen any time. The majority of these people base their work on stealth so as to avoid detection and capture. Hence, they are more likely to flee when it appears someone is checking the grounds. ...

I'm glad you're clairvoyant and can know the attitude and intent of some intruder you may possibly meet while clearing your yard. However, it is a tactical reality that if that intruder is scared enough or vicious enough to be willing to engage you, you will be at a significant disadvantage. That is why trained folks who have experience doing that sort of thing really hate to do it and will avoid doing if possible.

[Ribkick]

You all can, but it seems to me that arguing with what Fiddletown posted is foolish, IMO.

And to you Call to Glory commandos, I'm sure the bad guys appreciate the head lights you wear so they can get a good bead on your bean.

[cannon]

OP, Good job but for a very few dollars you can take the need to go outside to check away.

Back and side yards get motion and switch activated floods. That way you can turn off the inside lights and see what is going on out there.

*Tip learned the hard way* Make sure those floods don't shine into the neighbors windows.