Capacity vs Caliber

[d4v0s]

Ok so we all know that the kalifornistan 10 round mag limit influences our pistol purchases. So since we are limited we may as well have the biggest round we can get. Since 10 rounds of .45 is better than 10 of 9mm the choice is usually obvious. With that being said if mag limits were no longer an issue would you rather go with say a 9mm with 17 round mags or a .45 with 13 rounders?(glock 21 & 17 for examples). Would you go go the higher capacity pistols or stick to higher calibers? I know they make extended magazines for most calibers, but most 9mm pistols tend to have higher mag capacity OTB.

I kind of drink the "doesnt matter, all pistols calibers suck" kool aid. I mean aside from some nasty bear calibers (454cas, 460sw) all pistol cals are garbage compared to even a tiny .223 round.

With that said, I shoot a 45 with 10 round capacity because while it is well documented that 9mm expands, I have never seen a 45 shrink. Also there is a huge kinetic energy benefit with 45, 45 damages objects in a much more obvious way, tree branches, propane cyls, even steel. I have seen 9mm fmj bounce off steel at IDPA matches and never had that happen with my 40 or 45. I know there are many variable at play here, but I enjoy the recoil pulse of the lower pressure stuff.

I could see myself getting into 9mm with some 147grain HP ammo, would be nice to be rocking a gun with almost 20 bullets. But here in cali, I only get ten, so they will be the biggest I can find and still reasonably carry.

[dieselpower]

A hit is a hit... That being said if I have a garantee of only having to need 3 shots or 5 I'd go with a 357 or 45 just for that extra tissue damage.

But I have faith in all 9mm..45.. 40.. 357.. And 10... But like said above the amount of effort to keep anything other than 9mm is a bit of a pain (45 in a heavier gun like a 1911 is manageable too) but I wouldn't trust a 1911 for HD as of yet due to seeing a lot having FTE issues and being picky (yes I know some eat anything but ive seen just about the same amount not eat anything but let's stay on topic)

So to me its what are you trading off for that slightly bigger bullet for a little bit more tissue damage.. What you give up in follow up shots and control isn't worth the little bit extra.. So I stick to a good HP HD some round in 9mm and call it good.


Running a Glock 17 with Black tallon (cop killers) HP.

Followed up by a 4" GP100 with some 38 spcl HP ammo.. Looking to upgrade to some Hornady TAP HD in 38 if they have it... 38 is also a almost perfect medium HD round due to it being soft shooting but still has some good tissue damage.. But again I still favor the 9mm slight more than the 38.

there is no extra tissue damage between all the rounds you listed...they all do nearly the same amount to human flesh...and bigger doesn't always mean more damage. Do not be deceived by the channel in ballistics gel..that means nothing and doesnt even compare to a human body...not even close. The distance the bullet travels is what the gel is testing...and that is all.

Bullets fragment different with every medium they enter. Everything and any thing can happen.

There is a great radio interview with a Chicago Police office. He is noted as the top LEO who has been in more gun fights then any other LEO in the country. He carried a .44 magnum back-up and had to shoot a suspect from 5 feet away with it....44 MAG jhp CENTER MASS BLOWING UP THE HEART the suspect fought hand to hand with him for 3 minutes AFTERWARD. He shot a suspect in the head from 10 feet with a .45 JHP...then had to follow that up with 3 to the chest to get him to go down. He had an account written in Handgun magazine where a suspect was shot over a dozen times with .38 and .357 from two officers. The suspect killed his partner with a single 380 shot to the head. The two of them fought over the officers .357 and the officer discharged the remaining rounds into the floor believing he was going to lose control of the gun. He broke away retaining the gun and the suspect and he were on opposite sides of the room each out of breath. The Officer reloaded and the suspect charged at him again... he dropped him with two shots to the hip. The suspect died from blood loss.

I will say it again....ALL PISTOLS SUCK.... choose whatever you think is best. use good ammo. practice aiming and reloading. practice off hand shooting... practice clearing jams...

[Nick Justice]

Mmmm..Black Talon......Hmmmmm...got some

(sold some already...don't PM me about it..... )

Bought 100 boxes when the Ban-talk started.

I hope that's not ALL you have!

[Josh3239]

Since 10 rounds of .45 is better than 10 of 9mm the choice is usually obvious.

I disagree. I don't subscribe to the bigger is always better. I find that I can shoot both accurately, but I can shoot much faster and just as accurate with the 9mm. For CCW purposes, the 9mm are typically easier to conceal. Additionally, there is no discrimination from damaging major organs or the CNS with a 9mm versus .45acp, they can both kill just as well and they both can miss just as well. Just like what the Army learned when replacing the M14, the smaller bullets can be easier to teach people, can fire faster, hold more, and are overall just more effective. The 9mm is over 100 years old and is still the most popular CCW, LE, and military round worldwide.

As another poster mentioned, handgun bulletsin general are much less desirable than rifle bullets. Usually the damage handguns create is minimal, the difference between the wounds from the different calibers is minimal and in self-defense follow up shots are almost always necessary.

[Travis590A1]

Right, but I'm speaking just to pistols. I'm looking into another pistol. I'm giving my fiance my Ruger SR9c and looking into a new pistol for myself. I'm just unsure if I want a new 9mm or a bigger Caliber.

[BucDan]

there is no extra tissue damage between all the rounds you listed...they all do nearly the same amount to human flesh...and bigger doesn't always mean more damage. Do not be deceived by the channel in ballistics gel..that means nothing and doesnt even compare to a human body...not even close. The distance the bullet travels is what the gel is testing...and that is all.

Bullets fragment different with every medium they enter. Everything and any thing can happen.

There is a great radio interview with a Chicago Police office. He is noted as the top LEO who has been in more gun fights then any other LEO in the country. He carried a .44 magnum back-up and had to shoot a suspect from 5 feet away with it....44 MAG jhp CENTER MASS BLOWING UP THE HEART the suspect fought hand to hand with him for 3 minutes AFTERWARD. He shot a suspect in the head from 10 feet with a .45 JHP...then had to follow that up with 3 to the chest to get him to go down. He had an account written in Handgun magazine where a suspect was shot over a dozen times with .38 and .357 from two officers. The suspect killed his partner with a single 380 shot to the head. The two of them fought over the officers .357 and the officer discharged the remaining rounds into the floor believing he was going to lose control of the gun. He broke away retaining the gun and the suspect and he were on opposite sides of the room each out of breath. The Officer reloaded and the suspect charged at him again... he dropped him with two shots to the hip. The suspect died from blood loss.
I will say it again....ALL PISTOLS SUCK.... choose whatever you think is best. use good ammo. practice aiming and reloading. practice off hand shooting... practice clearing jams...

Dang, really opens my mind up on how adrenaline pumping can keep you going for a couple more minutes... now that's something to be aware of. Thanks for the story diesel.

[locosway]

Look it up guy.

You should look it up. Next thing you know you'll be saying that AR means Assault Rifle.

[CK_32]

You should look it up. Next thing you know you'll be saying that AR means Assault Rifle.

I have... And they were nick named cop killers while the evil bullet scare was going on after the mass shooting... Reason why I quoted that...........

[Baconator]

.380 is the most effective round.

[locosway]

I have... And they were nick named cop killers while the evil bullet scare was going on after the mass shooting... Reason why I quoted that...........

And who "nick named" them? Right... The media... Despite the pleas of the creators who tried to get the truth out about the rounds.

Besides, why would anyone call a round a "cop killer", especially in an educated gun community like CGN?

[CK_32]

You should look it up. Next thing you know you'll be saying that AR means Assault Rifle.

Really guy?

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=Cop-Killer+Bullets

Black Talon Bullet
(redirected from Cop-Killer Bullets)

http://thegunzone.com/black-talon.html

The hollow-tipped Black Talon bullets are some-times referred to as "cop killers" be*cause they can pierce police body armor.
- Dallas Morning News report
of 15 December 1999 raid

http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9741919888/m/1451943739/p/2

Black Talon Bullets have been labeled "Cop Killers" or armor piercing rounds that can pentrate a bullet proof vest being shot from a hand gun or rifle. This was made popular in the movie Lethal Weapon 2 (it may have been 1 not sure)These bullets were banned and only can be used by law enforcement now because of this repuatation. I have heard conflicting things about what they can actually do. I do know they inflict maximum damage on a live target and are extrememly lethal, not sure if they can actually penetrate a bullet proof vest though. I think this would make an interesting episode.

Plenty more if you'd like to look or your self...

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&spell=1&q=black+talon+cop+killers&sa=X&ei=Qkp-UOnIIonciQKv74GwAQ&ved=0CCkQvwUoAA&biw=320&bih=356

[Baconator]

unless you can find a .22 handgun that fits to your liking. Them's the real cop killers.

[locosway]

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic...Killer+Bullets

http://thegunzone.com/black-talon.html

http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9741919888/m/1451943739/p/2

Plenty more if you'd like to look or your self...

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...iw=320&bih=356

Man, you're dense.

[CK_32]

And who "nick named" them? Right... The media... Despite the pleas of the creators who tried to get the truth out about the rounds.

Besides, why would anyone call a round a "cop killer", especially in an educated gun community like CGN?

Ok now your goig way off topic.. I post that as a joke because it is ridiculous but I forgot everyone has to take everything on here so dam literal and make something of it. But yes they are called cop killers thus why I posted next to its literal name figured the parenthesis would give it away... Guess not.

[SilverTauron]

Ok so we all know that the kalifornistan 10 round mag limit influences our pistol purchases. So since we are limited we may as well have the biggest round we can get. Since 10 rounds of .45 is better than 10 of 9mm the choice is usually obvious.

NO.

For one practical example, a man who has a wife and kid to support can fund 100 rounds of 9mm for practice much easier than he can .45 Auto or 10mm. Capability with a firearm boils down to effective practice, which means you need to consider ammo cost in things. A ballistically awesome round is useless when the shooter is incapable of expertly shooting it for lack of experience. When I started shooting I stuck with 9mm carry pistols for that reason.

With that being said if mag limits were no longer an issue would you rather go with say a 9mm with 17 round mags or a .45 with 13 rounders?(glock 21 & 17 for examples). Would you go go the higher capacity pistols or stick to higher calibers? I know they make extended magazines for most calibers, but most 9mm pistols tend to have higher mag capacity OTB.

This isn't an academic exercise for me as I live in a state which has better things to do politically than to tell me what mags I can use. In my estimation, one should carry what they can shoot the best and leave magazine capacity out of it. For civilian defensive purposes, just showing the gun is enough to avoid an incident-and if things go past that you don't want the shooting to last long enough to go to slide lock, believe me.

Bad guys for their part don't start trouble with bystanders to play Rambo-once lead flies in their direction they'll be egressing at high speed. You may have 19 rounds in the magazine, but the bad guy won't stick around long enough for you to empty it. Research on civilian defensive incidents shows that the odds of even having to reveal the gun are small, and yet even less likely is the situation that you have to actually shoot 1 round. An exotic situation involving reloads from slide lock is possible for the average gun toting Joe, but about as likely as winning the Mega Lotto-and I don't see as many threads on millionaire account management as I do on gun magazine capacity.

Ill put it like this-if the best handgun I shot was a 9mm single stack with 9 ronds, id carry it. If it was a Glock 17 , id carry that . As it is the 1911 is my most accurate under pressure gun, and that's why I tote it around. Capacity doesn't factor into things for me, and I can buy whatever mags and pistols I wish up here.

Hopefully that lends some real-world clarity to things.