why are legal Class III Machineguns so expensive?

[mossy]

What are dealer samples? Never understood that expensive loophole.

They are machine guns that are transferable to dealers/SOT's that don't require a law letter to transfer. Someone with the right licenses can buy one and keep it on their books without getting a law enforcement permission. Upon closing the business down you have to get rid of all dealer samples though.

[mossy]

oh, so all the Fed License to make MG for a $1000/yr is pretty much a "dead letter" for individuals.

So under what "regime" do Corps still manufacture MGs for Govt use? I gotta think Sig etc got Corp Company compounds where Sig employees can full auto test the MGs they are selling to Uncle Sam, or are thinking about offering to Uncle Sam, and they do that how and when they want.

You have a very odd way of writing. If a manufacturer has a contract to produce weapons for the government, theh make the weapons or they don't get paid and won't get another contract. Employees don't get to play with the guns whenever they want, those guns are government property. Employees test firearms per company policy.

again, if you’re outside of CA just get a FRT. Its the cheapest way to play with something fast.

[sigstroker]

As of right now you can only transfer machine guns made before 1986. There was a case just recently that said this restriction violated the 2nd Amendment. We'll have to see where this goes. If it gets struck down it would open up the field to anything available and manufacturers could make new guns available to the general public.

It actually was NOT the 2nd Amendment. If it was, it would pretty much be a dead issue. The problem was, Congress did not have the power to pass that sort of bill, or more correctly, that sort of amendment. I mean, it was illegally passed anyway. They asked for a voice vote, many thought it was defeated, someone asked for a roll call vote, which they can do. They refused to do a roll call vote, which was clearly illegal. It passed anyway.

More intense discussion in this thread: https://www.calguns.net/forum/genera...de-great-again

[ar15robert]

Supply is limited and buyers want them.But these days if you are in a free state an FRT is pretty damn good and most will not know the difference.I have 2 ars with them and ones is a lil over a year its has been trouble free once set up,The other is a 16 inch ar i put together and so so far once running it has been trouble free too.Both are 3 position super safetys.

years ago i was lucky to be in the right spot to shoot a couple m16s and i couldnt ell you the difference in those or my frt set up

[Big Chudungus]

You have a very odd way of writing. If a manufacturer has a contract to produce weapons for the government, theh make the weapons or they don't get paid and won't get another contract. Employees don't get to play with the guns whenever they want, those guns are government property. Employees test firearms per company policy.

So it sounds like you can't even do any R&D on MGs unless you first got a Govt Contract (AKA own a small herd of Congressmen) to make guns that are "Govt property" from, Legally prior, to the guns "Immaculate Conception" on factory floor. And people wonder why USA is about 3 generations behind Russia in HMG design (and tactics).

" But seriously, WTF happened to Mr Victers and and what did he do?
he was a f***in idiot who got together with other idiots in a tiny police department and imported a bunch of class III toys for himself and his idiot buddies using fraudulent law letters. Think he was trying to sell AK12 kits as well avoiding the Russian import ban."
Interesting, seems like to use the Local PD Loophole you need to watch your Ps and Qs, and make sure anyone playing with the guns was in fact at least a PD employee, and no private side missions with The Guns.

[Duck Killer]

So it sounds like you can't even do any R&D on MGs unless you first got a Govt Contract (AKA own a small herd of Congressmen) to make guns that are "Govt property" from, Legally prior, to the guns "Immaculate Conception" on factory floor. And people wonder why USA is about 3 generations behind Russia in HMG design (and tactics).

" But seriously, WTF happened to Mr Victers and and what did he do?
he was a f***in idiot who got together with other idiots in a tiny police department and imported a bunch of class III toys for himself and his idiot buddies using fraudulent law letters. Think he was trying to sell AK12 kits as well avoiding the Russian import ban."
Interesting, seems like to use the Local PD Loophole you need to watch your Ps and Qs, and make sure anyone playing with the guns was in fact at least a PD employee, and no private side missions with The Guns.

Many people have a FFL 07/sot 2. There is a lot of work that doesn’t have direct federal government contracts. Fixing guns for police. Building guns for police. Upgrading firearms. There is a lot of them out there that just add the license. Hell some just buy a sell guns and don’t build anything.

[abinsinia]

I was thinking the Beretta 92R was cool, and I was wondering if someone had made an FRT for the 92 and yep , someone has. There's all these hardgun FRTs getting made now.

[mossy]

Interesting, seems like to use the Local PD Loophole you need to watch your Ps and Qs, and make sure anyone playing with the guns was in fact at least a PD employee, and no private side missions with The Guns.

Not a loophole, thats why hes awaiting sentencing.

[Capybara]

If you have ever shot many machine guns, if you are the least bit practical, you realize that while they are fun as hell, its 2026 and ammo costs for a fortune. Reloading components cost a fortune. Machine guns cost a fortune. Best way to scratch that itch if you're not in Commifornia is a .22 pistol and an FRT. Then at least you are burning through cheaper ammo.
I've shot many machine guns, my bucket list is pretty much done other than the M134 Minigun. They are fun but what most people say is its an expensive way to turn ammo into noise is mostly true. I'm not wealthy, but if I was, I might buy one, just for shytes and giggles but really, why? FRTs are far more practical and fun really because then you don't have to own
a gun that costs as much as a 4Runner to just have a little fun. From a historical perspective, most fun MG I have shot is the German MP40. That thing is really controllable and you can actually hit things with it and it's super historical and interesting.

Everyone I know who got their FFL07/SOT02 to be in that business reported that it was a PITA and stressful. Not something I'd do just to be able to mess with machine guns, you have to make it a legitimate business.

[sigstroker]

FRT's mostly only work on AR trigger groups. Even then, they don't work very well on anything that's not a generic 5.56 or Blackout. Some people have gotten them to run on a 9mm, but it's a lot of work. If you want anything other than an AR, it's a struggle. I've seen them on youtube on an MCX, which uses what is essentially an AR trigger group, but all FRT's won't work. There are no FRT's for subguns, which are the best and most practical mg's to have. You can use small ranges, including indoors, and even use them in some 2-gun matches. Plus 9mm ammo is a lot cheaper than rifle rounds.

There are no gadgets I'm aware of for the modern version of the M11/9, the most popular and cheapest subgun. There are a couple of them, I think, like the Masterpiece Arms. If there were, I'd probably buy one.

[Duck Killer]

Pretty sure there is and FRT for the mp5.

[GOEX FFF]

If you have ever shot many machine guns, if you are the least bit practical, you realize that while they are fun as hell, its 2026 and ammo costs for a fortune. Reloading components cost a fortune. Machine guns cost a fortune. Best way to scratch that itch if you're not in Commifornia is a .22 pistol and an FRT. Then at least you are burning through cheaper ammo.
I've shot many machine guns, my bucket list is pretty much done other than the M134 Minigun. They are fun but what most people say is its an expensive way to turn ammo into noise is mostly true. I'm not wealthy, but if I was, I might buy one, just for shytes and giggles but really, why? FRTs are far more practical and fun really because then you don't have to own
a gun that costs as much as a 4Runner to just have a little fun. From a historical perspective, most fun MG I have shot is the German MP40. That thing is really controllable and you can actually hit things with it and it's super historical and interesting.

Everyone I know who got their FFL07/SOT02 to be in that business reported that it was a PITA and stressful. Not something I'd do just to be able to mess with machine guns, you have to make it a legitimate business.

Back in the late 80's and early 90's, we used to go to the Soldier of Fortune convention in Las Vegas every year. We became good friends with the guys who did MG rentals out in the desert next to where the SOF convention guys put on their shooting demos.

They were FFL07/SOT02's out of Pahrump NV. We would later often visit them at their "ranch" (really it was a bunch of trailers and a junk yard in the middle of the desert) and we would shoot all kinds of fun class III stuff with them for the weekend. I've shot more MG's of all types than I can even remember.

One very memorable time having lunch in their main house, they brought an M60 into the kitchen that they just built and asked me to see if it was working. Before I could even take another bite, they handed it to me with a 100rnd belt, swung open the kitchen side door and I dumped the belt into a berm. "Guess it works!" LOL! So much fun.

They later offered me a job and get licensed to help build and repair MG's for their rentals. But I would've had to move to the middle of the NV desert and live in one of their trailers. lol Yeah wasn't going to happen back then, but it was a nice offer.

Those guys had the time of their lives playing with and building all sorts of stuff for their rental business.

[sigstroker]

Back in the late 80's and early 90's, we used to go to the Soldier of Fortune convention in Las Vegas every year. We became good friends with the guys who did MG rentals out in the desert next to where the SOF convention guys put on their shooting demos.

They were FFL07/SOT02's out of Pahrump NV. We would later often visit them at their "ranch" (really it was a bunch of trailers and a junk yard in the middle of the desert) and we would shoot all kinds of fun class III stuff with them for the weekend. I've shot more MG's of all types than I can even remember.

One very memorable time having lunch in their main house, they brought an M60 into the kitchen that they just built and asked me to see if it was working. Before I could even take another bite, they handed it to me with a 100rnd belt, swung open the kitchen side door and I dumped the belt into a berm. "Guess it works!" LOL! So much fun.

They later offered me a job and get licensed to help build and repair MG's for their rentals. But I would've had to move to the middle of the NV desert and live in one of their trailers. lol Yeah wasn't going to happen back then, but it was a nice offer.

Those guys had the time of their lives playing with and building all sorts of stuff for their rental business.

There's a good chance I paid those guys to rent that 60. I got hooked on 60's to the point I bought a spare barrel in case I ever run across someone that had a 60 they would let me shoot. I wouldn't have to feel guilty about burning up their barrel.

[sigstroker]

Pretty sure there is and FRT for the mp5.

Kinda. You convert the gun to use an AR fire control and then stick an AR FRT in it.

[GOEX FFF]

There's a good chance I paid those guys to rent that 60. I got hooked on 60's to the point I bought a spare barrel in case I ever run across someone that had a 60 they would let me shoot. I wouldn't have to feel guilty about burning up their barrel.

Their business was called MWAT (Military Weapons and Technology). If that was them, I bet it was the same 60.