Safes on the second floor

[Merc1138]

My link I posted back, was from an aquarium site... How much does a 50 gallon aquarium weigh? 8 lbs x 50 gallons for the water, etc.. I am not saying AT all, the you can stick a 1000 safe in 4 square feet. My intent was to throw some ideas out there and get a discussion about floor loads, in an educational fashion.

A gallon of water weighs around 8.5 pounds if I remember correctly. The water alone would be 425 pounds, not including the stand and aquarium itself(and then of course the rocks in the bottom weighing more than the water they're displacing).

edit: And yea, aquarium owners are really in the same boat regarding weight distribution and load on the floor as we are with safes.

[bill_k_lopez]

I think the right solution is just send those guns over to my house, and I'll keep them in my safe for you.

[Jeepergeo]

Wouldn't some of that be offset by where the safe was placed and what framing structure was underneath it?

In the middle of a large open floor area would put more weight in the middle of long floor joist spans, vs right up next to a wall, where there might be a bearing wall underneath on the first floor. Then some of the weight would be transfered down thru the wall framing to the foundation.

Yep, placing the safe where you described would help. It would still exceed the design load for the floor, but would be less likely to cause an immediate collapse.

[Jeepergeo]

My link I posted back, was from an aquarium site... How much does a 50 gallon aquarium weigh? 8 lbs x 50 gallons for the water, etc.. I am not saying AT all, the you can stick a 1000 safe in 4 square feet. My intent was to throw some ideas out there and get a discussion about floor loads, in an educational fashion.

Your point and example are good ones.

Many apartment leases prohibit waterbeds and aquariums on the second floor. Most folks assume that is to prevent water damage, and it is. But it also addresses load issues. When a water load collapses a floor, that's water damage too.

[Curtis]

The information above is good and accurate. Keep in mind that the loading for the floor system is based on psf. My designs use 40 psf live load and 14 psf dead load (including some misc. loading to make nice round numbers). To put this in perspective, you can cover the entire floor area with 11-1/4" of drywall and not exceed the live load.

The short answer: There are things that can go wrong, but there shouldn't be an issue as long as you take a few things into account.

-Once a floor deflects, it won't go back. So don't set the safe in the middle of the floor joist span. This can happen if you put the same at an interior wall.
-The weakest point in the floor system is the plywood. The ideal floor would have concrete, but it is rare homes. So if your heavy furniture has small legs, be aware. Your safe should not have an issue. However, you could use 1-1/8" thick peace of plywood to sit the safes on.
-Try to place your safe based on the framing. If you put it over the garage, set the safe over the main garage beam or over a wall. It also works if you set the safe above an area were there are a lot of walls. You could also use your 1-1/8" plywood to span over several floor joist.
-We aware that second floor interior walls sit on floor joist, so the first 16" of the plywood is unsupported.
-Exterior walls that stack with exterior walls below are the best. The ideal situation is when the joist are perp. to the exterior walls; when they are parallel they do put perp. blocking at 32" on center.
-Be aware of the joist direction if you are putting two safes in the same room. If you the joist are perp. to the wall you set them on, no issue with side by side. If the joist are parallel, you are setting all this weight on a couple of joist; move one to an alternate location.

If you have any questions, drop me a line.

[Bobby Hated]

if im guessing right these are contractor answers. my dad is an engineer (PhD, taught at USC, consultant for bechtel, and 50 yrs experience in the field)

i called to check with him so here's his answer:

there are more factors than the CBC live loads figures suggest. those figures are assuming the floor is a uniform structure foot by foot. it is not.

the floor is supported by joists.

factor #1: those joists are 16" apart. so it depends on where the joists are and how big the safe is and where the safe sits on them. you could have it sitting on 2 or 3 joists with the edges hanging off the end of the joists, or it could be on 3 or 4 joists with the edges of the safe on the joists.

what direction to the joists go in? if you dont know where the joists are, you can't know which direction they are oriented. why is that relevant?

factor #2: the length of the joists affects their ability to bear load. shorter joists are stronger than longer ones.

factor #3: joists are stronger next to the wall or post they extend from than in the middle of their length.

factor #4: along the length of the joists, other furniture, appliances, etc. could also be bearing on the same joists that the safe is loading on.

so... given the load bearing range of these factors, the max live load possible is in the 2000lb range. however it could also be well below 1000lbs. its a wide range. without examining the structure, no one can tell you for sure whether or not the location you want to put the safe is or is not structurally capable of bearing the load.

my pops doesnt have the time to come look at your house. he's super busy lately. but any competent structural engineer should be able to examine the structure, the plan, and make a few quick calculations on the spot and be able to tell you if where you want to put the safe is structurally capable of bearing the load. this should take a competent engineer no more then 30min to do. 1 hour if he's really slow. and should cost $100 but no more than $200.

but of course few engineers are competent. most of them just use pre-packaged designs that come on CD's and are incapable of accurately evaluating structures they dont have the CD for. ha ha. in this tight market any good engineer is busy as hell. all the con artists are out of work.

my dad's final piece of advice: if you want to find out if an engineer, architect or contractor is honest, ask them to do something that is dishonest. if they agree, guess what? they'll burn you too.

[Bobby Hated]

The information above is good and accurate. Keep in mind that the loading for the floor system is based on psf. My designs use 40 psf live load and 14 psf dead load (including some misc. loading to make nice round numbers). To put this in perspective, you can cover the entire floor area with 11-1/4" of drywall and not exceed the live load.

The short answer: There are things that can go wrong, but there shouldn't be an issue as long as you take a few things into account.

-Once a floor deflects, it won't go back. So don't set the safe in the middle of the floor joist span. This can happen if you put the same at an interior wall.
-The weakest point in the floor system is the plywood. The ideal floor would have concrete, but it is rare homes. So if your heavy furniture has small legs, be aware. Your safe should not have an issue. However, you could use 1-1/8" thick peace of plywood to sit the safes on.
-Try to place your safe based on the framing. If you put it over the garage, set the safe over the main garage beam or over a wall. It also works if you set the safe above an area were there are a lot of walls. You could also use your 1-1/8" plywood to span over several floor joist.
-We aware that second floor interior walls sit on floor joist, so the first 16" of the plywood is unsupported.
-Exterior walls that stack with exterior walls below are the best. The ideal situation is when the joist are perp. to the exterior walls; when they are parallel they do put perp. blocking at 32" on center.
-Be aware of the joist direction if you are putting two safes in the same room. If you the joist are perp. to the wall you set them on, no issue with side by side. If the joist are parallel, you are setting all this weight on a couple of joist; move one to an alternate location.

If you have any questions, drop me a line.

didnt see this when i posted.

[ckprax]

What Bobby Hated and Curtis posted is correct, it could be fine depending on the the floor construction and the placement of the safe. The only way to know is to look at the floor. In general you want to span as many joists as possible and place the safe against a load baring wall. I have had to deal with this same issue with my aquarium.

[smle-man]

I was just about to move my three long gun lockers to a vacant 2nd floor bedroom. Each locker probably weighs 350lbs or so loaded, with 3 to place in the room. If they are spread out around the perimeter of the room does this resolve the load bearing issue? They are certainly less per locker than the actual safes being discussed here but total weight is the same.

I had a buddy many years ago that had an enormous safe from a defunct discount store moved into his 2nd floor apartment. He kept his class three weapons in it and if it weighed less than half a ton I'd be surprised. I wonder if it left the floor permanently bowed!

[Bobby Hated]

I was just about to move my three long gun lockers to a vacant 2nd floor bedroom. Each locker probably weighs 350lbs or so loaded, with 3 to place in the room. If they are spread out around the perimeter of the room does this resolve the load bearing issue? They are certainly less per locker than the actual safes being discussed here but total weight is the same.

it depends which way the joists are oriented. if all 3 safes are on one side of the room, they could either all be sitting on the same joists (bad) or all be sitting on seperate joists (good). you want the joists to be perpendicular to the wall you are lining up the safes on. and any space between them is a plus. best case scenario would be one in each corner with the third in the middle, along an exterior wall that the joists are perpendicular to, in a room on the corner of the house.

[smle-man]

The room is on the corner of the house with a window in the long exterior wall. I can put one in the corner of the room for two exterior walls, one in the corner of an exterior and interior wall and one on the long exterior wall but not in the corner (because of closet doors). I suspect that the two lockers in the corners will be on opposite ends of the same joists that run parallel to one of short walls (rectangular room). Maybe it is better to put all three along the long exterior wall because they will be on separate joists?

[Bobby Hated]

The room is on the corner of the house with a window in the long exterior wall. I can put one in the corner of the room for two exterior walls, one in the corner of an exterior and interior wall and one on the long exterior wall but not in the corner (because of closet doors). I suspect that the two lockers in the corners will be on opposite ends of the same joists that run parallel to one of short walls (rectangular room). Maybe it is better to put all three along the long exterior wall because they will be on separate joists?

cant say if i dont know which way the joists go. you'd have to check the plans if you dont know offhand. you dont need an engineer for that though.

and yes where two exterior walls meet at the corner of the house is the strongest point. assuming you have a traditional design and not some modern art masterpiece with cantilevered rooms or something.