Safes on the second floor

[cannon]

We're house hunting and a really big house on a big lot has the wife in it's clutches.

The house was built in 2006.

In this house the safes would be on the second floor. Safe 1 is a cannon fireproof that's 24X32 and safe 2 is a non fireproof Cannon 24X48. Safe 2 is %60 ammo when loaded.

Are these suckers when loaded gonna fall through the floor?

[Unit74]

What are the weights of the safes? When I had my safe installed, I asked to go upstairs and they just laughed at me. It was 1200 pounds. Not to mention if there is a fire, that puppy is making a b line down stairs. Anything that wasn't damage probably will be once the floor collapses.

[Jeepergeo]

The 2010 California Building Code will give you an idea. CBC gives design codes for new construction: an older home or building may have been designed for smaller or larger loads or its capacity may have deteriorated due to aging.

CBC - Live Loads - Uniformly Distributed!!
Residential, One- and two-family dwellings
Uninhabitable attics without storage -10 #/sqft
Uninhabitable attics with limited storage - 20 #/sqft
Habitable attics and sleeping areas - 30 #/sqft
All other areas - 40 #/sqft

A Cannon 60 x 30 x 24 fire safe weighs about 600# empty and 800# lightly loaded with guns and some ammo. That's 800# on a 5 sqft footprint, or a loading of 160#/sqft...4X the maximum design loading for the floor! There is a good chance you'd damage your floor and downstairs ceiling, and the safe might just drop through.

You'd need to put that safe on a 5'x5' weight distributing platform to reduce the loading to 32 #/sqft, a more realistic load assuming you don't overload the safe with heavy stuff.

So, IMHO, you'd be better off putting the safes on a concrete slab in the garage or maybe on the first flood if you have slab construction.

[cannon]

The 2010 California Building Code will give you an idea. CBC gives design codes for new construction: an older home or building may have been designed for smaller or larger loads or its capacity may have deteriorated due to aging.

CBC - Live Loads - Uniformly Distributed!!
Residential, One- and two-family dwellings
Uninhabitable attics without storage -10 #/sqft
Uninhabitable attics with limited storage - 20 #/sqft
Habitable attics and sleeping areas - 30 #/sqft
All other areas - 40 #/sqft

A Cannon 60 x 30 x 24 fire safe weighs about 600# empty and 800# lightly loaded with guns and some ammo. That's 800# on a 5 sqft footprint, or a loading of 160#/sqft...4X the maximum design loading for the floor! There is a good chance you'd damage your floor and downstairs ceiling, and the safe might just drop through.

You'd need to put that safe on a 5'x5' weight distributing platform to reduce the loading to 32 #/sqft, a more realistic load assuming you don't overload the safe with heavy stuff.

So, IMHO, you'd be better off putting the safes on a concrete slab in the garage or maybe on the first flood if you have slab construction.

I am always amazed by the depth of diverse knowledge on this forum.

Thank you, I really appreciate your response.

[freonr22]

The 2010 California Building Code will give you an idea. CBC gives design codes for new construction: an older home or building may have been designed for smaller or larger loads or its capacity may have deteriorated due to aging.

CBC - Live Loads - Uniformly Distributed!!
Residential, One- and two-family dwellings
Uninhabitable attics without storage -10 #/sqft
Uninhabitable attics with limited storage - 20 #/sqft
Habitable attics and sleeping areas - 30 #/sqft
All other areas - 40 #/sqft

A Cannon 60 x 30 x 24 fire safe weighs about 600# empty and 800# lightly loaded with guns and some ammo. That's 800# on a 5 sqft footprint, or a loading of 160#/sqft...4X the maximum design loading for the floor! There is a good chance you'd damage your floor and downstairs ceiling, and the safe might just drop through.

You'd need to put that safe on a 5'x5' weight distributing platform to reduce the loading to 32 #/sqft, a more realistic load assuming you don't overload the safe with heavy stuff.

So, IMHO, you'd be better off putting the safes on a concrete slab in the garage or maybe on the first flood if you have slab construction.

What is the load on the floor when a 200 lb person is standing still?

[GartenZwerge]

What is the load on the floor when a 200 lb person is standing still?

orrrr a couple larger people hugging..?

[Merc1138]

orrrr a couple larger people hugging..?

Or a refrigerator that stays in one spot for years at a time?

[freonr22]

Is it on wheels? Or laying flat on the floor? If its flat, the load is 154lbs a sq ft or 1.07 pounds a square inch. Based on 28x20 footprint. 560 sq inches or 3.88888 sq feet. S can your floor take 4 154 lbs girls standing next to each other without breaking? A piece of paper is smaller than a sq ft, ie 8.5 x 11. That is close to the same as 2 foots together. Picture 4 people with feet together as the load.

With that said. This is a good read

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article28.html

I read some just for you

It probable would not hurt to throw a couple supports under where Its gonna sit... Under the house..

Check the link op

[mveto]

Or a cast iron bathtub filled with water and a 200lbs person?? My 24 gun safe has done very well on our second floor.

[Jeepergeo]

What is the load on the floor when a 200 lb person is standing still?

One person standing is maybe loading 1 square foot with 200#. The safe is applying an estimated 160# to each of five adjacent 1 sq foot areas. It's all about weight distribution and total loading.

Imagine a svelte, 5'6" tall, 120# brunette wearing tennis shoes and standing on your toe. Not much pain there, and probably enjoyable. The load is something like 15 psi when the pressure is applied via the toe of her shoe.

Now imagine that same svelte, 5'6" tall, 120# brunette in 6" red stiletto heals standing on your toe. Lots of pain there, and probably much less enjoyable. The load in the heels is 666 psi when the pressure is applied via the spike heel!

Building Code design loads are all about distribution of weight based on typical use. Putting either one of those safes on the second floor will significantly overload the floor. Will it instantly collapse the floor? Maybe or maybe not depending on proximity of the load to a load bearing wall and a corner.

But why take the chance? Clearly the load exceeds the floor rating and putting the safe up there could ruin the floors or drop the safe on someone below.

[CAL.BAR]

I am always amazed by the depth of diverse knowledge on this forum.

Thank you, I really appreciate your response.

The rest of us already knew you can't put a gun safe that large on the second floor, we just don't dazzle you with the fancy numbers.

[Bro KV]

I have a Cannon Safari upstairs in my bedroom. I believe the empty weight was 375ish.

[paul0660]

The rest of us already knew you can't put a gun safe that large on the second floor, we just don't dazzle you with the fancy numbers.

And yet, it is done all the time. Also there are many homes built with wood framed first floors, with the same ratings, and safes do well there too.

I would, in the interests of common sense, put the ammo safe close to a load bearing wall, and as much as possible span 3 joists (24" centers) or 4 (16") centers. You may be able to determine the spacing of the joists from the sheetrock in the first floor ceiling.

[Untamed1972]

One person standing is maybe loading 1 square foot with 200#. The safe is applying an estimated 160# to each of five adjacent 1 sq foot areas. It's all about weight distribution and total loading.

Imagine a svelte, 5'6" tall, 120# brunette wearing tennis shoes and standing on your toe. Not much pain there, and probably enjoyable. The load is something like 15 psi when the pressure is applied via the toe of her shoe.

Now imagine that same svelte, 5'6" tall, 120# brunette in 6" red stiletto heals standing on your toe. Lots of pain there, and probably much less enjoyable. The load in the heels is 666 psi when the pressure is applied via the spike heel!

Building Code design loads are all about distribution of weight based on typical use. Putting either one of those safes on the second floor will significantly overload the floor. Will it instantly collapse the floor? Maybe or maybe not depending on proximity of the load to a load bearing wall and a corner.

But why take the chance? Clearly the load exceeds the floor rating and putting the safe up there could ruin the floors or drop the safe on someone below.

Wouldn't some of that be offset by where the safe was placed and what framing structure was underneath it?

In the middle of a large open floor area would put more weight in the middle of long floor joist spans, vs right up next to a wall, where there might be a bearing wall underneath on the first floor. Then some of the weight would be transfered down thru the wall framing to the foundation.

[freonr22]

My link I posted back, was from an aquarium site... How much does a 50 gallon aquarium weigh? 8 lbs x 50 gallons for the water, etc.. I am not saying AT all, the you can stick a 1000 safe in 4 square feet. My intent was to throw some ideas out there and get a discussion about floor loads, in an educational fashion.