FFL internet/mail order sticker shock!!

[zatoh]

Has anyone noticed an FFL internet/mail order FFL fee increase for their local FFLs?

I was at Gun World in Burbank to make arrangements for them to receive a Tokarev TT33 from that I wanted to order from AIM. While I'm watching the salesman fill out receipt paperwork I see a figure of $100 in addition to the normal tax and DROS. At that point I stop the salesman and ask what the $100 was for and he states that it is their standard fee for mail or internet firearms orders. At that point I stop and tell him that I'll go look around (as he suggested).

So next I give HMK a call to let him know that I was going to order a Tokarev from AIM. He too tells me after I state what I wanted that it's going to be $100 on top of tax and DROS. At that point I decide that I better wait and see what's going on here. Harry's reason for raising his prices is that he says that it makes him compete with himself - which is reasonable. I guess he's trying to turn his one of his retirement past times (as he stated in the past as "something to do") into a full fledged business. It just hurts (even more) paying a $100 markup (versus the previous $25) for something you have to pay shipping, tax and DROS on as well. If he wants to sell at that mark up then it looks like he's going to be sitting on a lot of inventory, but I guess he has the space so no worry there in addition to paying tax on it as well.

The idea traveling out of state to purchase C&R stuff is sounding more attractive all the time.

[bruss01]

Has anyone noticed an FFL internet/mail order FFL fee increase for their local FFLs?

I was at Gun World in Burbank to make arrangements for them to receive a Tokarev TT33 from that I wanted to order from AIM. While I'm watching the salesman fill out receipt paperwork I see a figure of $100 in addition to the normal tax and DROS. At that point I stop the salesman and ask what the $100 was for and he states that it is their standard fee for mail or internet firearms orders. At that point I stop and tell him that I'll go look around (as he suggested).

So next I give HMK a call to let him know that I was going to order a Tokarev from AIM. He too tells me after I state what I wanted that it's going to be $100 on top of tax and DROS. At that point I decide that I better wait and see what's going on here. Harry's reason for raising his prices is that he says that it makes him compete with himself - which is reasonable. I guess he's trying to turn his one of his retirement past times (as he stated in the past as "something to do") into a full fledged business. It just hurts (even more) paying a $100 markup (versus the previous $25) for something you have to pay shipping, tax and DROS on as well. If he wants to sell at that mark up then it looks like he's going to be sitting on a lot of inventory, but I guess he has the space so no worry there in addition to paying tax on it as well.

The idea traveling out of state to purchase C&R stuff is sounding more attractive all the time.

Yeah, and people wonder why the "local FFL" is falling out of favor. When you avoid having them gouge you on price by buying on-line, they find a new and creative way to stick it to you - a "surcharge" for an internet purchase. Penny-wise and pound-foolish, my friend. No one who gouges me will ever get a chance to do it a second time. I realize they "have to make a living too" but there is plenty to be made on ammo and cleaning supplies, you don't have to make a huge profit on every gun out the door. Maybe too many "huntin' buddies" on the payroll?

I go to a kitchen table FFL (well he has a home office, all right) and you know what? He doesn't feel the need to gouge me and he knows I'll be back 4-5 times a year and he will earn my business again and again. Heck, I've even bought from him and he earned a fair markup on one gun I couldn't find myself that he was able to locate for me. He provided a service and a product, aside from obliging me in the legal techicalities imposed by the state, and so he fairly earned that profit. But $100 just to fill out a piece of paper? That is just spiteful. Well, I can return that kind of favor. Sorry, I'll take my business elsewhere.

[M. D. Van Norman]

The O.C. Indoor Range recently quoted me $75 for an interstate transfer. While not great, that does include the DROS fee.

[!@#$]

more than $75 including DROS is butt rape IMO.

[WokMaster1]

This subject comes up once every other week. Try & do some searching around & you'll find that some FFLs here giving detailed reasons why.

rent, insurance, worker's comp, legal fees to keep DOJ at bay, low return, etc. That's why there are a lot fewer FFLs in California than before. If you put yourself in their shoes, I'm sure you'd understand that at the end of the day, all the love for firearms does not equate to keeping the lights on in the store. Just my $0.02 as a business owner in California.

[zatoh]

Yes I know it comes up every other week, but 400%???!! Wow is all I can say. I don't fault the guy or any other store but 4x as much for a "service" that you have to go through a "state" run private business. The state should pay you if anything.

If you tell me that your cost of doing business just shot up 400% then then either you've been under charging all along or you figure that there's more money to be made in the "mail order/internet" business thing. Maybe it's just too much hassle to receive these orders?

Don't get me wrong, it was a good deal before and I appreciate all that they have done. But I'm not sure the reduced labor vs more $$ trade-off will equate to more or even the same money overall if that's truly his (or your concern). Charge what you want, I don't have to buy. You don't have to sell. Everybody loses except those whose intention it is to reduce or stop the flow of legally purchased firearms into the state. Squeeze, squeeze, squeeze. Then there is nothing left. Then you leave the busniess and become a regular "schmoo" like me but more bitter.

I do applaud you for running any sort of business in the state of California. I would not. Good luck and thanks for enlightening us.

This subject comes up once every other week. Try & do some searching around & you'll find that some FFLs here giving detailed reasons why.

rent, insurance, worker's comp, legal fees to keep DOJ at bay, low return, etc. That's why there are a lot fewer FFLs in California than before. If you put yourself in their shoes, I'm sure you'd understand that at the end of the day, all the love for firearms does not equate to keeping the lights on in the store. Just my $0.02 as a business owner in California.

[CSACANNONEER]

Try going into any retail bussiness and telling the that you can get their merchandise at wholesale but, you need to have it shipped to them. Then, ask them if they'll let you have it shipped to them if you give them well less than they would normally make selling the same item to you. OK, after you pick your a** off the sidewalk, think about it. You can buy all the guns you want off the internet but, you need to go through your local FFL. If he/she isn't making a profit on the sale, HOW can he/she stay in bussiness without charging you a fee. Maybe, you don't like the amount that you're being charged but, it was your responsibility to know find out how much you were going to be charged BEFORE you decided to buy a gun this way. The ONLY person that you should be angry with is YOURSELF! If you don't like it, open your own shop and do transfers for $5.00 each. You'll have more business than you can handle but, you'll never be able to pay the rent.

[bobfried]

WOW.

First off I will agree that any FFL need to make a profit to stay in business and I will whleheartedly support them. But two things:

1) They're charging you tax? WTF?????

2) So your paying DROS and ANOTHER $100? WTF???

They're no better than thieves, sorry, just how I feel. Ade's charge me $70 flat (all fees, DROS, taxes and all) for any firearms transferred from out of state. If Ade's told me that he's going broke I would spend another $500 on ammo to keep him afloat. If he said he needs more I'll buy a firearm or two from him. In fact, any of Ade's customer, if they could, would buy at least $500 worth of stuff from him if he ever asks any of us to.

I've worked for small business and have dealt with local FFL's (and have seen a few great one move away) to know that they are struggling sometimes to make a profit. But making a profit and outright swindling someone out of their money are two completely different things.

AIM charges $210 and about $10 for shipping, that's $220 for the Tokarev.

So your telling me that the above store needs to make AT LEAST 50% profit to do the transfer? So if I asked them to buy me a Tokarev they would charge me $310 for it? That my friend is price gouging and thievery at it's best.

Once again, I support any business and wish them to make as much profit as they can. But there's a fine line between profit and just being douches.

[CSACANNONEER]

WOW.

So your telling me that the above store needs to make AT LEAST 50% profit to do the transfer? So if I asked them to buy me a Tokarev they would charge me $310 for it? That my friend is price gouging and thievery at it's best.

Once again, I support any business and wish them to make as much profit as they can. But there's a fine line between profit and just being douches.

Most retailers have +100% markups on many items. Now, if you ordered a $10,00 shotgun and they only charged you $100 or 1% would you feel like you got a deal? Again, it's up to you to find out how much your local FFL charges BEFORE you commit to using them. If you don't like their prices, go somewhere else or open your own shop.

[ar15barrels]

I realize they "have to make a living too" but there is plenty to be made on ammo and cleaning supplies

So do you buy your ammo and cleaning supplies from them, or do you shop for the discount price on the internet?
Or do you just expect them to make their money on someone else buying their ammo and cleaning supplies there?

[bobfried]

Most retailers have +100% markups on many items. Now, if you ordered a $10,00 shotgun and they only charged you $100 or 1% would you feel like you got a deal? Again, it's up to you to find out how much your local FFL charges BEFORE you commit to using them. If you don't like their prices, go somewhere else or open your own shop.

Those are the magic words.

[bruss01]

HEY -

This is a simple question of supply and demand.

If you want to sell, you have to compete in a broader marketplace. Don't blame the customer because another merchant offers the product at a lower price than you want to charge. You can't sell that cheap? then ask yourself what that merchant is doing right that you're doing wrong. Hey, if the prices were crazy, unprofitable cheap, they'd go out of business too. Think about it.

Even if the product was a break-even proposition, offer something (like, I dunno, personal service?) that the customer can't get elsewhere. They'll come back to you time and again because of a relationship of trust and respect. I will tell you flat out, every gun seller BUT ONE has offered me nothing but disrespect. Outrageous charges for this-that-n-th-other, unasked-for opinions, snide remarks about my choice of firearms... those I can live without quite nicely, thank you. The one that offered me respect and reasonable charges, I return to time and again.

Most firearm retailers are their own worst enemy. They want to blame the internet, but the real truth is more painful and much closer to home.

[ar15barrels]

Everybody wants to have their cake and eat it too.
Cake is not free.

[ocabj]

1) They're charging you tax? WTF?????

2) So your paying DROS and ANOTHER $100? WTF???

They're no better than thieves, sorry, just how I feel. Ade's charge me $70 flat (all fees, DROS, taxes and all) for any firearms transferred from out of state.
...
Once again, I support any business and wish them to make as much profit as they can. But there's a fine line between profit and just being douches.

An FFL can charge tax. Technically, if they wanted to, they could charge sales tax on the cost of the gun that you paid, assuming they knew it. Of course, they don't get the salex tax money. That goes to the state, obviously. Just because a particularly FFL won't let you cheat on the "Use Tax", you don't have to resort to calling him/her a 'douche'.

[ar15barrels]

An FFL can charge tax. Technically, if they wanted to, they could charge sales tax on the cost of the gun that you paid, assuming they knew it. Of course, they don't get the salex tax money. That goes to the state, obviously. Just because a particularly FFL won't let you cheat on the "Use Tax", you don't have to resort to calling him/her a 'douche'.

Exactly.
People don't realize that EVERYTHING you purchase out-of-state is supposed to have use-tax paid on it.
Only this year has the FTB finally made an entry field on the 540 so that you can pay the tax yourself.
That's why FFL's can now get away from charging the tax.
They are just shifting the reporting responsibility to the buyer.