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Would this AR configuration be CA legal?

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  • Jester Race
    Member
    • Oct 2009
    • 124

    Would this AR configuration be CA legal?

    Featureless AR pistol

    No butt stock and barrel less then 16" = pistol, Correct?

    No pistol grip, flash hider, forward grip, and assuming the free float tube isn't considered a barrel shroud.
    What about "The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
    outside of the pistol grip."? It doesn't have a "pistol" grip.

    No BB required?
    Could you use standard capacity magazines?

  • #2
    Ed_Hazard
    Calguns Addict
    • Oct 2008
    • 5146

    well the weapon in the pic would most likely be classified as a AOW. The Ca. AW provision about the mag outside the pistol grip would still apply, as mag is outside of the "grip" area.
    Originally Posted by Sic Boy
    And I bet Jobs surfs porn. If he doesn't, I'll eat a live baby on stage at the next Apple event.
    Originally posted by AJAX22
    Don't F with those guys... they can probably use their teabag to inflict blunt force trauma.


    Comment

    • #3
      bohoki
      I need a LIFE!!
      • Jan 2006
      • 20815

      people have tried it with 50 bmg if it doesn't have a buttstock its not a "rifle"

      but it has not been explored fully for use with autoloaders that look like rifles

      like said above it may not be a pistol it may tread into aft's "other" area that is a really bizarre setup
      Last edited by bohoki; 11-19-2011, 12:50 AM.

      Comment

      • #4
        Mr310
        Calguns Addict
        • Feb 2011
        • 5692

        That's sexy. You'd have to rock "Shoot To Thrill" by AC/DC when you go rock and roll with it, though.
        WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to but not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

        Comment

        • #5
          kemikalembalance
          Senior Member
          • Jun 2011
          • 599

          legal or not, do you wanna attract the attention? its not worth it for me. mho n' all.
          ,
          and our leaders allow themselves to be spoon fed with foreign BS and have forgotten that the great majority of americans do not live in secluded gated comunities with private security 24/7 like they do, while the rest of us are subject to defending ourselves without Police escorts whenever we need it. they dont realize we are subject to different dangers than they are, and we must have and keep the right do defend ourselves!

          Comment

          • #6
            Cali-Shooter
            Calguns Addict
            • Oct 2009
            • 9192

            The lack of a stock would most likely relegate that gun as an AOW, and that is very murky water in CA.
            In Glock We Trust.
            Originally posted by jeep7081
            My wife sleeps better knowing we have a zombie killer... Saiga AK47! Although my neighbor with his AR has restless nights.
            Originally posted by AleksandreCz
            Thank god the Federal Government is there to protect us from the Federal Government
            WTS: Revision 'Desert Locust' tactical Ballistic/Protective eyewear goggles NEW & USED pairs
            http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=737563

            Comment

            • #7
              bohoki
              I need a LIFE!!
              • Jan 2006
              • 20815

              Originally posted by Cali-Shooter
              The lack of a stock would most likely relegate that gun as an AOW, and that is very murky water in CA.
              i think there is some confusion of AOW that is "any other weapon" they are generally smooth bore short barrel items with no buttstocks (or a briefcase mp5 with camera shutter controlled trigger)

              this contraption is rifled has no buttstock but does not seem concealable

              it would not be a pistol or rifle so it may be classified as an "other" which classification includes bare receivers and 18 inch shotshell firing firearms without buttstocks (such as mossberg cruiser that come with factory installed pistolgrip)


              AOW is NFA at a bargan basement $5 tax but still has exorbinant paperwork involved
              Last edited by bohoki; 11-19-2011, 12:13 PM.

              Comment

              • #8
                Grumpyoldretiredcop
                Calguns Addict
                • Sep 2008
                • 6437

                Here's the Federal code section in question (definition of an "Any Other Weapon"/"firearm"). I don't believe you will be able to fit the weapon shown in the OP's photo into this section as the barrel does not appear to be less than 16" in length, and the overall length appears to be more than 26", nor could it be concealed on the person; therefore it is not an AOW. What the OP describes in words wouldn't be an AOW as it lacks a stock and is therefore not a "a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length". I'm sure that someone with more expertise in NFA law than I will correct me if I'm wrong.

                CA law, of course, is another story. I'm not sure I'd venture an opinion for such a weapon with a barrel <16".

                Sec. 5845. Definitions

                STATUTE

                For the purpose of this chapter -
                (a) Firearm
                The term "firearm" means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels
                of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun
                if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26
                inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3)
                a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in
                length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified
                has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels
                of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined
                in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined
                in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8) a
                destructive device. The term "firearm" shall not include an antique
                firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive
                device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds
                by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other
                characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely
                to be used as a weapon.

                intervening material removed for brevity

                (e) Any other weapon
                The term "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of
                being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged
                through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a
                barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed
                shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels
                12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a
                single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual
                reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily
                restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a
                revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons
                designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not
                capable of firing fixed ammunition.
                Last edited by Grumpyoldretiredcop; 11-19-2011, 9:28 PM.
                I'm retired. That's right, retired. I don't want to hear about the cop who stopped you today or how you didn't think you should get a ticket. That just makes me grumpy!

                Comment

                • #9
                  SoCal AJ
                  Banned
                  • Nov 2011
                  • 231

                  Originally posted by Jester Race
                  Featureless AR pistol

                  No butt stock and barrel less then 16" = pistol, Correct?

                  No pistol grip, flash hider, forward grip, and assuming the free float tube isn't considered a barrel shroud.
                  What about "The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
                  outside of the pistol grip."? It doesn't have a "pistol" grip.

                  No BB required?
                  Could you use standard capacity magazines?

                  Do you usually hit nails with a sledge hammer???

                  why would you turn a .223 into a "wanna-be" crew served weapon with a puny *** drum mag? I mean if you were putting it on the front of a boat, or something else that was fragile or shock and/or weight sensitive, then I get it, but unless you've got money to burn and are just doing it for giggles... WTF???

                  If that's what you really want, go buy a SAW, the Marines are going to be dumping them by the thousands and you can go belt fed or standard magazines.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    dieselpower
                    Banned
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 11471

                    deleted, since quoted post was deleted...LOL
                    Last edited by dieselpower; 11-19-2011, 11:11 PM.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      SoCal AJ
                      Banned
                      • Nov 2011
                      • 231

                      I understand your comments...

                      what pains me is that any of them are necessary at all. Who gives a flying rip if the barrel is that, or the overall length is this, or the mag capacity is X instead of Y, or the thing is painted black instead of green?

                      we need to start rolling back the clock on gun control laws and start rolling up the time served sentences on thugs who commit crimes. Also we need to reduce the cost to house and feed those animals by reducing the comforts they enjoy.

                      I'd like to export all of our criminals to Mexico, it would be an immediate cash flow boon to Mexico, an immediate reduction in the budget of border states, and believe me... nobody is gonna steal a $100 stereo if they think they are going to jail in Mexico where family has to bring them decent food else they get the slop garbage from restaurants a day or two later after the guards bother to go get it.

                      maybe if crime sucked when you get caught, instead of having a celebrity status... there would be fewer people doing it? just wondering...
                      Last edited by SoCal AJ; 11-19-2011, 11:14 PM. Reason: meh, I guess that was the same post, I should have quoted it lol

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        sirsloth
                        Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 388

                        (D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
                        outside of the pistol grip.

                        I see what you're saying and it makes sense, but I also see it the other way. If it doesn't have a pistol grip and it accepts a detachable magazine, it therefore must accept a detachable magazine outside of the pistol grip, no?

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          ke6guj
                          Moderator
                          CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                          • Nov 2003
                          • 23725

                          per CA law, it would still be considered a pistol since it has a barrel <16". As such as a semi-automatic centerfire pistol, the pistol AW regs apply. Because of that, I'm pretty sure that (D) would apply. I think that they might consider the spade grips to be "the pistol grip". In any case, the magazine is not being fed through "the pistol grip" so think that it would fall under "some location outside the pistol grip" even if the firearm doesn't even have a PG.

                          And you couldn't do a fixed-mag build with a Beta-C since it would be a fixed mag over 10-rounds.
                          Jack



                          Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

                          No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Cokebottle
                            Seņor Member
                            CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                            • Oct 2009
                            • 32373

                            Originally posted by Ed_Hazard
                            well the weapon in the pic would most likely be classified as a AOW. The Ca. AW provision about the mag outside the pistol grip would still apply, as mag is outside of the "grip" area.
                            I wouldn't chance it with the barrel shorter than 16".

                            With a barrel longer than 16"?

                            Mag outside of the PG only applies to handguns.

                            That would not be a handgun, as the barrel exceeds 16" and it was not designed to be fired with one hand.

                            Not being a handgun, "barrel shroud" does not apply either.


                            What is pictured is also not a rifle, as it was not designed to be fired from the shoulder.

                            What is pictured is not an AOW. Examples of AOW would be a smooth-bore pistol, pen gun, cane gun, disguised guns, wallet guns, SBS with a VFG, etc....

                            Provided that it meets all NFA regulations, it is simply a Title-I "Other", not unlike a stripped lower or "Cruiser" shotgun.
                            Must be 21 to transfer.

                            It would be exempt from the California AW bans because it is not a handgun nor a rifle, thus it would not be illegal to use the Beta magazine, however, the problem still remains that the magazine would have to have been legally possessed within California prior to the ban.


                            Why do this rather than the more practical "featureless build"?
                            Because, other than the fact that it cannot have a pistol grip or a telescoping/folding buttstock (either of which would make it fall under California's AW ban), it allows you to have a flare launcher, flash hider, and the ability to use full capacity magazines and no need for a bullet button.
                            - Rich

                            Originally posted by dantodd
                            A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Jester Race
                              Member
                              • Oct 2009
                              • 124

                              Originally posted by SoCal AJ
                              Do you usually hit nails with a sledge hammer???

                              why would you turn a .223 into a "wanna-be" crew served weapon with a puny *** drum mag? I mean if you were putting it on the front of a boat, or something else that was fragile or shock and/or weight sensitive, then I get it, but unless you've got money to burn and are just doing it for giggles... WTF???

                              If that's what you really want, go buy a SAW, the Marines are going to be dumping them by the thousands and you can go belt fed or standard magazines.
                              Schitz n' giggles, that's all.

                              Originally posted by Cokebottle
                              I wouldn't chance it with the barrel shorter than 16".

                              With a barrel longer than 16"?

                              Mag outside of the PG only applies to handguns.

                              That would not be a handgun, as the barrel exceeds 16" and it was not designed to be fired with one hand.

                              Not being a handgun, "barrel shroud" does not apply either.


                              What is pictured is also not a rifle, as it was not designed to be fired from the shoulder.

                              What is pictured is not an AOW. Examples of AOW would be a smooth-bore pistol, pen gun, cane gun, disguised guns, wallet guns, SBS with a VFG, etc....

                              Provided that it meets all NFA regulations, it is simply a Title-I "Other", not unlike a stripped lower or "Cruiser" shotgun.
                              Must be 21 to transfer.

                              It would be exempt from the California AW bans because it is not a handgun nor a rifle, thus it would not be illegal to use the Beta magazine, however, the problem still remains that the magazine would have to have been legally possessed within California prior to the ban.


                              Why do this rather than the more practical "featureless build"?
                              Because, other than the fact that it cannot have a pistol grip or a telescoping/folding buttstock (either of which would make it fall under California's AW ban), it allows you to have a flare launcher, flash hider, and the ability to use full capacity magazines and no need for a bullet button.
                              That makes sense, I didn't even think about it being considered an AOW or "other". So who do I write a letter to to get a definitive answer? CADOJ? ATF?

                              Comment

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