Would this AR configuration be CA legal?

[Jester Race]

Featureless AR pistol

No butt stock and barrel less then 16" = pistol, Correct?

No pistol grip, flash hider, forward grip, and assuming the free float tube isn't considered a barrel shroud.
What about "The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
outside of the pistol grip."? It doesn't have a "pistol" grip.

No BB required?
Could you use standard capacity magazines?

[Ed_Hazard]

well the weapon in the pic would most likely be classified as a AOW. The Ca. AW provision about the mag outside the pistol grip would still apply, as mag is outside of the "grip" area.

[bohoki]

people have tried it with 50 bmg if it doesn't have a buttstock its not a "rifle"

but it has not been explored fully for use with autoloaders that look like rifles

like said above it may not be a pistol it may tread into aft's "other" area that is a really bizarre setup

[Mr310]

That's sexy. You'd have to rock "Shoot To Thrill" by AC/DC when you go rock and roll with it, though.

[kemikalembalance]

legal or not, do you wanna attract the attention? its not worth it for me. mho n' all.

[Cali-Shooter]

The lack of a stock would most likely relegate that gun as an AOW, and that is very murky water in CA.

[bohoki]

The lack of a stock would most likely relegate that gun as an AOW, and that is very murky water in CA.

i think there is some confusion of AOW that is "any other weapon" they are generally smooth bore short barrel items with no buttstocks (or a briefcase mp5 with camera shutter controlled trigger)

this contraption is rifled has no buttstock but does not seem concealable

it would not be a pistol or rifle so it may be classified as an "other" which classification includes bare receivers and 18 inch shotshell firing firearms without buttstocks (such as mossberg cruiser that come with factory installed pistolgrip)


AOW is NFA at a bargan basement $5 tax but still has exorbinant paperwork involved

[Grumpyoldretiredcop]

Here's the Federal code section in question (definition of an "Any Other Weapon"/"firearm"). I don't believe you will be able to fit the weapon shown in the OP's photo into this section as the barrel does not appear to be less than 16" in length, and the overall length appears to be more than 26", nor could it be concealed on the person; therefore it is not an AOW. What the OP describes in words wouldn't be an AOW as it lacks a stock and is therefore not a "a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length". I'm sure that someone with more expertise in NFA law than I will correct me if I'm wrong.

CA law, of course, is another story. I'm not sure I'd venture an opinion for such a weapon with a barrel <16".

Sec. 5845. Definitions

STATUTE

For the purpose of this chapter -
(a) Firearm
The term "firearm" means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels
of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun
if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26
inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3)
a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in
length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified
has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels
of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined
in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined
in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8) a
destructive device. The term "firearm" shall not include an antique
firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive
device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds
by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other
characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely
to be used as a weapon.

intervening material removed for brevity

(e) Any other weapon
The term "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of
being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged
through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a
barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed
shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels
12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a
single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual
reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily
restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a
revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons
designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not
capable of firing fixed ammunition.

[SoCal AJ]

Featureless AR pistol

No butt stock and barrel less then 16" = pistol, Correct?

No pistol grip, flash hider, forward grip, and assuming the free float tube isn't considered a barrel shroud.
What about "The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
outside of the pistol grip."? It doesn't have a "pistol" grip.

No BB required?
Could you use standard capacity magazines?

Do you usually hit nails with a sledge hammer???

why would you turn a .223 into a "wanna-be" crew served weapon with a puny *** drum mag? I mean if you were putting it on the front of a boat, or something else that was fragile or shock and/or weight sensitive, then I get it, but unless you've got money to burn and are just doing it for giggles... WTF???

If that's what you really want, go buy a SAW, the Marines are going to be dumping them by the thousands and you can go belt fed or standard magazines.

[dieselpower]

deleted, since quoted post was deleted...LOL

[SoCal AJ]

I understand your comments...

what pains me is that any of them are necessary at all. Who gives a flying rip if the barrel is that, or the overall length is this, or the mag capacity is X instead of Y, or the thing is painted black instead of green?

we need to start rolling back the clock on gun control laws and start rolling up the time served sentences on thugs who commit crimes. Also we need to reduce the cost to house and feed those animals by reducing the comforts they enjoy.

I'd like to export all of our criminals to Mexico, it would be an immediate cash flow boon to Mexico, an immediate reduction in the budget of border states, and believe me... nobody is gonna steal a $100 stereo if they think they are going to jail in Mexico where family has to bring them decent food else they get the slop garbage from restaurants a day or two later after the guards bother to go get it.

maybe if crime sucked when you get caught, instead of having a celebrity status... there would be fewer people doing it? just wondering...

[sirsloth]

(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
outside of the pistol grip.

I see what you're saying and it makes sense, but I also see it the other way. If it doesn't have a pistol grip and it accepts a detachable magazine, it therefore must accept a detachable magazine outside of the pistol grip, no?

[ke6guj]

per CA law, it would still be considered a pistol since it has a barrel <16". As such as a semi-automatic centerfire pistol, the pistol AW regs apply. Because of that, I'm pretty sure that (D) would apply. I think that they might consider the spade grips to be "the pistol grip". In any case, the magazine is not being fed through "the pistol grip" so think that it would fall under "some location outside the pistol grip" even if the firearm doesn't even have a PG.

And you couldn't do a fixed-mag build with a Beta-C since it would be a fixed mag over 10-rounds.

[Cokebottle]

well the weapon in the pic would most likely be classified as a AOW. The Ca. AW provision about the mag outside the pistol grip would still apply, as mag is outside of the "grip" area.

I wouldn't chance it with the barrel shorter than 16".

With a barrel longer than 16"?

Mag outside of the PG only applies to handguns.

That would not be a handgun, as the barrel exceeds 16" and it was not designed to be fired with one hand.

Not being a handgun, "barrel shroud" does not apply either.


What is pictured is also not a rifle, as it was not designed to be fired from the shoulder.

What is pictured is not an AOW. Examples of AOW would be a smooth-bore pistol, pen gun, cane gun, disguised guns, wallet guns, SBS with a VFG, etc....

Provided that it meets all NFA regulations, it is simply a Title-I "Other", not unlike a stripped lower or "Cruiser" shotgun.
Must be 21 to transfer.

It would be exempt from the California AW bans because it is not a handgun nor a rifle, thus it would not be illegal to use the Beta magazine, however, the problem still remains that the magazine would have to have been legally possessed within California prior to the ban.


Why do this rather than the more practical "featureless build"?
Because, other than the fact that it cannot have a pistol grip or a telescoping/folding buttstock (either of which would make it fall under California's AW ban), it allows you to have a flare launcher, flash hider, and the ability to use full capacity magazines and no need for a bullet button.

[Jester Race]

Do you usually hit nails with a sledge hammer???

why would you turn a .223 into a "wanna-be" crew served weapon with a puny *** drum mag? I mean if you were putting it on the front of a boat, or something else that was fragile or shock and/or weight sensitive, then I get it, but unless you've got money to burn and are just doing it for giggles... WTF???

If that's what you really want, go buy a SAW, the Marines are going to be dumping them by the thousands and you can go belt fed or standard magazines.

Schitz n' giggles, that's all.

I wouldn't chance it with the barrel shorter than 16".

With a barrel longer than 16"?

Mag outside of the PG only applies to handguns.

That would not be a handgun, as the barrel exceeds 16" and it was not designed to be fired with one hand.

Not being a handgun, "barrel shroud" does not apply either.


What is pictured is also not a rifle, as it was not designed to be fired from the shoulder.

What is pictured is not an AOW. Examples of AOW would be a smooth-bore pistol, pen gun, cane gun, disguised guns, wallet guns, SBS with a VFG, etc....

Provided that it meets all NFA regulations, it is simply a Title-I "Other", not unlike a stripped lower or "Cruiser" shotgun.
Must be 21 to transfer.

It would be exempt from the California AW bans because it is not a handgun nor a rifle, thus it would not be illegal to use the Beta magazine, however, the problem still remains that the magazine would have to have been legally possessed within California prior to the ban.


Why do this rather than the more practical "featureless build"?
Because, other than the fact that it cannot have a pistol grip or a telescoping/folding buttstock (either of which would make it fall under California's AW ban), it allows you to have a flare launcher, flash hider, and the ability to use full capacity magazines and no need for a bullet button.

That makes sense, I didn't even think about it being considered an AOW or "other". So who do I write a letter to to get a definitive answer? CADOJ? ATF?