No hollowpoints in war?

[CaliforniaLiberal]

I don't know that the Marines of the Pacific theater would agree with you as the Japanese hid in caves and tunnels until they ran out of ammo at which point they would commit suicide in honor of the emperor.

Although I suppose WWII was a few decades later?

Sent from my motorola with tapatalk.

Hague Conventions - 1899, WWII Japanese in caves - 1942 to 1945

[Josh3239]

WW2 was definitely dirtier than people realize. Everyone knew that you didn't want to be a POW of the Russians or Japanese nor the Germans if you were a communist. There are stories of Germans pretending to be medics and then spring ambushes and the Japanese loved to shot medics. As the Germans were retreating all over Europe they left booby traps to cover their tracks, what we would call today as IEDs. The Japanese were nearly as brutal to each other as they were to the Americans and the rest of Asia. Japanese medics either slit the wounded's throats or gave them a hand grenade to set off when American medics came to help. In Asia, the Japanese would use people for decapitation contests, cannibalism, rape, and bayonet practice. And of course the treatment of POWs included beatings, withholding of food, and the occasional execution. We all know about the Bataan death march.

Bottom line is war has always been brutal and it sure seems the US and just a handful of other countries follow the so-called "rules of war."

[Abenaki]

The banning of hollow points used in war goes way back in time.
If I correctly recall hollow points, or dum-dums were outlaw for use against Christians......By the Pope? But were ok for use against Hindus, Muslims, and other "savages"!

Take care
Abenaki

[Untamed1972]

Part of the explanation I've heard also is that you dont want to kill your enemy, you want to would them, because a wounded man is more of a drain on resources then a dead man. So by wounding your enemies you deplete their resources of tie up personnel dealing with the wounded that would otherwise be available on the battlefield if every guy that got hit was killed.

Conversely that's why you're not allowed to use FMJ to hunt. You dont want to wound the animal, you want it to die as quickly as possible.

[Mickael81]

I think cops use HP to prevent over penetration in case they miss the target. The U.S. Military uses the 62gr 5.56 Green tips with a steel core capable of penetrating a quarter inch steel plate. Although currently our enemies overseas don't wear armor vests, the steel core bullet will take out hadji's taking cover behind walls, doors, or inside vehecles. A HP round would not be suitable for general combat. HP or FMJ,, if the target gets hit, problem is solved.
I do know that snipers sometimes use open tip ballistic ammunition during training.

[MrPlink]

The more you can kill of the other side, the less that will return to the battlefield. Wounded can still fight, think, react. Dead cannot.

In no manner of US military tactics do we care to wound. Our personal weapons are not designed for it. Our aircraft would find it impossible. And our warships do not have the luxury of even seeing the enemy before engaging.

Please, tell all your friends: The US Military KILLS THE ENEMY, as often as he desires to be killed.

I have to agree 100% here.

The concept of intentionally wounding an enemy on the battlefield in this matter is theoretical at best.
Furthermore, it used to be something you would hear a lot way back when, when people wanted to defend the controversial adaptation of 5.56

This concept really hedges on the opposition being organized more like a conventional military, more specifically under the assumption they even have a medic on hand anywhere near the combat zone.

While on our end, the concept is true, our boys will definitely do whatever it takes to get their fellow soldiers out of harms way and usually have a medic, corpsman,etc etc near by. Now considering the kind of forces we have been fighting for the past how many decades, this concept does not always hold true for the other side.

[mjmagee67]

It takes more people to take care of an injured person than a dead one---that's one of the reasons for the .224 round--along with less weight so soldiers can carry more rounds.

[five.five-six]

If I correctly recall hollow points, or dum-dums were outlaw for use against Christians......By the Pope? But were ok for use against Hindus, Muslims, and other "savages"!

Take care
Abenaki

that sounds reasonable

[stormvet]

I think The only ones that really care if we have hollow points in the military are civilians, as a soldier at war I never cared if my rounds were FMJ or HP, a 5.56 round is most likely going to fragment anyway and if I am going to be using my sidearm in battle, well things have gone very very bad for me and FMJ or HP most likely wont make a big enough difference to worry about.
Believe me we cared a hell of allot more about Armor, artillery and air cover then we did about having HP or FMJ bullets in our M4s and sidearms.

[Army]

Part of the explanation I've heard also is that you dont want to kill your enemy, you want to would them, because a wounded man is more of a drain on resources then a dead man. So by wounding your enemies you deplete their resources of tie up personnel dealing with the wounded that would otherwise be available on the battlefield if every guy that got hit was killed.

Conversely that's why you're not allowed to use FMJ to hunt. You dont want to wound the animal, you want it to die as quickly as possible.

It takes more people to take care of an injured person than a dead one---that's one of the reasons for the .224 round--along with less weight so soldiers can carry more rounds.

Did either of you read this thread?

Militaries do not care about wounding. We kill. It is just as much a drain on resources to kill, as an injury. But the dead do not return to the fight.

The NATO M855 5.56 bullet, while a FMJ, is engineered to tumble upon impact and begin to break apart. At combat distance, it rarely stays in one piece, creating injuries far more extensive than non-engineered FMJ bullets. The newest version, M855A1, is a bi-metal bullet, whose external penetrator is a separate part that is firmly attached to the bullet body. At impact in resistant media, the two parts break away. Hitting a hard target results in superior penetration than the older M885, and reports of hajji getting hit have been very encouraging, with wounds far in excess of the caliber.

Even the Marines are fielding a better bullet designed by Federal, that is based on the Trophy Bonded Bearclaw bullet. While the fore area is lead filled, the mass of the bullet is solid copper, resulting in a bullet that flies through solid medium like windshields and light armor/barriers straighter, yet upsets like a hollowpoint in soft tissue.

Guys, this stuff is built to kill, only.

[dadoody]

Okay i dont know if this could get heated or not... but. Seriously.. why are hollow points not legal to use in war.. ITS WAR! is anyone against this? really. Im puzzled...

Its illegal.....for a long time. Waaaay longer than Geneva Convention. They were outlaw in 1899 @ The Hague Convention.

So NATO countries don't use hollowpoints....however, they get around it a variety of ways, like having full metal ammo where it is filled in lop sided so the round still can tumble once it hits someone.

[Army]

....however, they get around it a variety of ways, like having full metal ammo where it is filled in lop sided so the round still can tumble once it hits someone.

No.

[Sailormilan2]

http://www.codoh.com/trials/triwartrial.html

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

[rero360]

Its illegal.....for a long time. Waaaay longer than Geneva Convention. They were outlaw in 1899 @ The Hague Convention.

So NATO countries don't use hollowpoints....however, they get around it a variety of ways, like having full metal ammo where it is filled in lop sided so the round still can tumble once it hits someone.

Please do show an example.

No.

What he said


The round that I'm aware of, and I'll freely admit that there may be others, that had any sort of void inside the round (not counting HPs and OTMs) is the 5N7, the original round for the AK-74, that bullet had a small pocket of air in the tip due to the manufacturing process.

However . . . Soviet Russia was most definitely not a member of NATO.

[Afterburnt]

The simple answer is that people are morons. I wish I didn't believe that a bunch of allegedly sane people thought that it was a good idea to ban hollow points. But they think that bashing the enemies skull in with a butt stock is ok. I heard you are not supposed to kick em in the nuts either but shooting or blowing their nuts off is ok. Yeah this all makes sense to me %^(