Turners 'effectively' formalizes gun lock requirements

[jaymz]

Everyone here obviously has a computer @ their disposal. Most of us have enough brand new trigger locks laying around to rebuild the Titanic. Next time you go to pick up your new handgun, grab a lock, and print yourself a receipt. It's really that simple. No arguing, no standing in line for half an hour to return a 5 or 10 dollar piece 'o' junk trigger lock. No B.S.

[taloft]

No, I does not.

Here is the Safe Affidavit Form that is on the DOJ website. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/gsaff.pdf

You have not waived any rights by signing a Safe Affidavit. You're only swearing under penalty of perjury that what you are saying about your safe is true. They still need your permission, a warrant, or PC to search if they want to inspect your safe. If they find that you lied then you could be charged with perjury. How easy it might be to get a search warrant is the real question, and would probably depend on the Judge. I would imagine that it wouldn't be too hard if you purchased more guns than your safe is designed to hold. I'm not a lawyer so take it for what it is worth.

The Feds require a gunlock for handguns. The State requires that all gunlocks that are sold be DOJ approved models. It is against the law for FFL 01 dealers to give you a lock that isn't DOJ approved. Therefore, unless you show up with a DOJ approved lock and a current receipt, you're buying a lock. This obviously wouldn't apply when the maker includes a listed lock. Many people list different methods for dealing with this, YMMV. I recommend doing your homework prior to purchasing to find out if your new purchase comes with an approved lock. This will allow you to call BS when the dealer tells you that the included lock isn't DOJ approved. Not all makers include listed locks.

[Maddog5150]

Damn, Ive never seen a group of gunguys cry so much about a five dollar lock.

[rivviepop]

Damn, Ive never seen a group of gunguys cry so much about a five dollar lock.

It has nothing to do with the money, I think most of us on this forum have the disposable income at hand. It has to do with discussing how, or how not, a corporation is possibly taking advantage of the consumer and our rights therein; failure to defend your rights (or exercise them, depending) almost implicitly waves them in most circumstances. We have a duty as consumers to keep the big businesses honest.

[rkt88edmo]

And it is just another case where it starts with a gun lock, and leads to a permit/home inspection/government intrusion and arbitrary approval of the right to own firearms.

[aplinker]

You have so many options to get around this, if you so choose.

A safe affidavit is only accepted by them for long guns. For handguns, if the gun comes with an approved lock, they consider the handgun purchase a lock purchase. If it's PPT or consignment, you either need a lock+receipt or buy one.

Write a receipt to yourself for an unused lock you have. Easy.

[Maddog5150]

With all ways you guys want to "go around" the law, no wonder FFLs are getting shut down all the time. DOJ is a rogue agency that doesnt always play by the rules. That being said, write a reciept on a napkin and expect DOJ to be peachy? Expect the FFL to bend over backwards and look the other way as you return the lock? Ive had DOJ stings done on me at the shop I work at, yeah I passed but its funny how shady and petty they get to fine you. You might of beaten "the man" but in the long run the FFL will suffer when there is just a tiny bit of info that DOJ doesnt like.
As for the FFL taking advantage of you, thats really funny freaking funny. They might make a buck off those locks, think they are making a little bit more on the gun they are selling you? Think that maybe, just maybe, they are weary of DOJ, the entity that can shut them down in a heart beat? No!!! damn the man! go on with your struggle against your freedom caused by the gun shop making a buck off a five dollar lock. *raises fist* Power to the people brothers!
Take the fight to legislation and not to the poor kid making eight bucks an hour to deal with the mountains of paperwork.

[allenst65]

With all ways you guys want to "go around" the law, no wonder FFLs are getting shut down all the time.

My desire is not to 'go around' the laws. It is for all to the understand the laws correctly, and to have them applied correctly. The resentment aimed at certain dealers stems from them creating their own interpretations and rules under the guise that "the DOJ made us do it".

You might of beaten "the man" but in the long run the FFL will suffer when there is just a tiny bit of info that DOJ doesnt like. As for the FFL taking advantage of you, thats really funny freaking funny. They might make a buck off those locks, think they are making a little bit more on the gun they are selling you? Think that maybe, just maybe, they are weary of DOJ, the entity that can shut them down in a heart beat?

I've seen dealers do things that clearly make them their own worst enemy, so I'm not sure how weary many (smaller) dealers actually are of the DOJ. Last year when one fine, upstanding FFL pocketed the $35 PPT money and released a handgun without actually doing the electronic DROS submission, it took 4 months and many calls to Sacramento before they were ever set straight by the DOJ.

Just this week, another shop at first refused to give me a copy of my PPT DROS submission (sans seller info of course), saying they were not allowed to hand it out since it contained confidential info such as their CFD number. The clerk was clearly unaware of 12076(b)(5), but my firm stance and willingness to back up my request with documentation finally yielded a copy, albeit with much grumbling on their part.

Speaking of fearing a DOJ sting, how many dealers actually abide by this little gem when they deliver a firearm to a customer?
"12071.(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements:
(3) No firearm shall be delivered: (B) Unless unloaded and securely wrapped or unloaded and in a locked container."

Even after forcing a lock sale, Turners will simply throw the unopened lock into the bag along with your handgun and then send you on your merry way. Again, this is another example of CA's poorly written legislation, but somehow I doubt a court of law would look favorably on Turners yellow plastic bag as means of 'securely wrapping' a firearm. Clearly with the lock still in the unopened package, nothing is being locked up when the handgun is being delivered, nor does the dealer seem to care. Once the buyer walks out of the store, it's 'his problem'.

An FFL does have much to loose, but by the same token, they should be the ones staying most up to date on, and acting in accordance with, the law. Like some new LEOs getting their first badge, some FFLs act as though they were bestowed with a full comprehension of the law the instant they were granted their license, not to mention free reign to enforce it as they see fit. With so much to loose and living in such emminent fear of the DOJ, it makes it all the harder to understand how so many of them can be so woefully unprepared for the tasks at hand.

Take the fight to legislation and not to the poor kid making eight bucks an hour to deal with the mountains of paperwork.

You're right, the poor clueless sales clerk doesn't need our wrath. But you've left out one important party, the middleman (aka FFL, store owner, Turners corporation) who collects his profit from the gun trade.

Turners, and any other dealer for that matter, should acknowledge the legislative problems and work alongside the buying public so we can take the fight to the legislature together. I'm not sure I see this happening however. What I feel is a sense of arrogance, with some dealers thinking that we need them more than they need us. They take the CYA approach, doing whatever is needed to secure their interests, even if that means getting the consumer play along with their made-up rules, seemingly fueled by fears of the DOJ bogeyman.

Yeah, maybe this is all just beating a dead horse.

I thought a forum was an arena for discussion of ideas and opinions, hopefully one where clarity and understanding could emerge. But why bother. We might as well accept some dealer's arbitrary rules and get on with life, or go find some other dealer we like better (that is until they also make up some arbitrary rules we don't like and we're forced to start all over again).

I guess we shouldn't be too surprised though when the day comes and we have to pay a 'CA approved ammo' fee. Yeah it will only be $5 extra per box ... that's not really too much extra to pay for the privilege of buying not unsafe ammo. And I'm sure the dealer will only be getting $1-2 out of that extra fee ... it's hardly like he will make a killing on it considering all of his troubles and probable loss in income resulting from the new restrictions.

It's just a shame that the FFLs and consumers didn't come together and fight the first of these restrictions when they had the chance. In hindsight, I'm sure many dealers would have been willing to give up that $1 on lock sales in order to take a stand and protect their livelihood in the long run. Wouldn't they ??

[ScottyBear]

Turners didn't force me to pay for a gunlock on my new USPc, but there already an Hk branded one in the the carrying case it came with.

[PIRATE14]

Well any FFL can do as they wish or what they see as compliance w/ any laws or what their ATF/DOJ inspector tells them to do........

Their interpretation doesn't have to match yours.......that's why some guys xfer OLL and some don't........it's their business and they run it as they want....

Joe Blow FFL mandates lock purchases another one lets the one that comes w/ the handgun that is DOJ approved meet the requirements.....they are both doing what they think is necessary to comply........end of story.

You can discuss this issue all you want but it won't change anyones mind about it............

If anyone goes around the law and it sounds like they do......just like everything else....sometype of new legislation will pass.

[allenst65]

After all this, we can come to the conclusion that FFLs are either 1) shaking in their boots for fear of the DOJ, or 2) doing as they wish and running a business as they see fit. Is there any wonder there are fewer dealers and more are getting shut down?

Could it be that dealers are getting slammed not due to customers trying to skirt the laws, but from their own arrogance in running a business and shear ignorance on how they could work to deter future restrictions?

Oh well, it's a real house divided. Let them reap their profits today ...who cares about sustaining a business and protecting their/our rights in the long run. Business is business, even if it ends up destroying itself.

[Boris]

I also think management wants to eliminate the safe avidavit and save a couple of minutes here and there as well as turn a $2-$4 profit on some junk lock.

W

Think about your logic Mike: a retailer that sells safes for $300 to $1000 wants to eliminate the affidavit that validates the sale of those same safes so that they can make "$2-$4 profit on some junk lock?" What brand glue do you buy?