Non US citizen rules??

[chester2005]

Hi this is my first post and i would like some advice if possible please.

I am from the UK where all handguns are illegal!!!!!!!!

I will be over in Long Beach in September and i was wondering if it is possible and legal to get some small arms handling training and practice whilst over there.
is it legal
is it a complicated procedure
are there many ranges that would teach me and let me practice

all answers would be much appreciated

[Subotai]

Easy! A lot of ranges have classes, gun rentals, etc. If some of the local guys don't answer, when you get here, just call all the ranges in the phone book.

If ya got time, in Las Vegas there are ranges where you can shoot full-auto machineguns.

[Rekrab]

It is very legal. I've taken a number of non-US citizens shooting for fun.

You would want to speak directly with gun ranges to ask about training programs. The individual ranges might have their own policies. One thing I can foresee is needing to bring another adult along with you for insurance reasons.

Have fun!

[Subotai]

Chainsaw, I think with an instructor, anyone can shoot.

[POLICESTATE]

I thought rentals were okay so long as you met age requirements and you weren't a felon, mental case etc...?

Whenever I've gone to rent I don't have to prove citizenship, or even that I'm not a felon or a nut!

I don't know how it all works out, but in any case, if you go shooting with someone you should be fine, otherwise if you took your 8 year old kid out shooting you'd be in violation of the law right?

Sounds really stupid to me.

Oh and welcome to America, bring MONEY$$

Wrong. In order for a person to have possession of a gun, they need to either be a US citizen (let's skip over the various prohibited categories like felons), or be a permanent resident (colloquially known as "green card"), or they have to have a valid hunting license from a state in the US. And the moment you rent or borrow a gun, you have possession of it.

This is federal law. Look it up in some ATF rule book, or contact the ATF. Since it is federal law, it also applies in Las Vegas.

Now, some shooting ranges are ignorant of this rule, and are willing to rent guns to non-residents without hunting licenses. That's a serious crime in the making.

I don't know how difficult it is to obtain a hunting license for a non-resident (tourist). The class typically takes a weekend, but I don't know whether non-residents are even allowed to take it. The only person I know who is a non-resident with a US hunting license got his hunting license by bringing a hunting license from his country of origin to California, and since his country has much more stringent rules for hunting licenses, he was issued a license without having to take the class.

If you want to do gun training while traveling: Israel has some very good programs that cater to foreigners. I have no personal experience with that, but a German friend of mine did a few training classes there.

[Subotai]

Chester, I think if you google gun ranges near Long Beach, you can make some calls.

[Rekrab]

Wrong. In order for a person to have possession of a gun, they need to either be a US citizen (let's skip over the various prohibited categories like felons), or be a permanent resident (colloquially known as "green card"), or they have to have a valid hunting license from a state in the US. And the moment you rent or borrow a gun, you have possession of it.

I'm not aware of any such law. Could you please show it to me? I'd like to know as I regularly take foreigners shooting to show them a good time in America.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

And here is the plain English version on ATF's FAQ page...

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nonimmigrant-aliens.html#rental-qualifications

As long as you possess a valid hunting license from a State within the United States, you may rent firearms to hunt and to use at a shooting range. If you do not have the hunting license, your possession of the firearms and ammunition will be unlawful. The hunting license does not have to be from the State where you will be possessing the guns and ammunition.

I believe there are some States that allow visitors to get temporary hunting licenses online without taking a hunting class. Maybe some of the hunters here on the forum can chime in on that. If you did that then you could rent firearms while visiting any State.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

It looks like you can get an Alaska hunting license online without taking a class, but it costs $300 for non-resident aliens. You'd have to do a lot of shooting to make it worthwhile.

-- EDIT --

Texas has a "Non-Resident Five-Day Special Hunting" license for $48 that you can buy online. You would have to time it right because you would only be able to go shooting during that 5 day period.

[Rekrab]

So, the only thing I'm seeing this applying to is rental. If a non-us citizen were to go to the range while accompanied by a legal owner of a firearm the owner would be able to lend the gun to the non-resident because legally the gun has not been rented or left the legal possession of the owner, similar to how I can lend someone a 10+ round magazine while I am at the same range. Am I wrong? I read through Chapter 44 922 but didn't see anything that applied to this specific situation.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

As chainsaw pointed out, foreign tourists without a valid State hunting license are in the same category as convicted felons under Federal law. They are prohibited from "possessing" firearms or ammunition. This change came about within the past few years. My copy of the law from 2000 only mentions that illegal aliens are prohibited. But they changed it after 9/11 to prohibit non-immigrant aliens as well, unless they have a hunting license or other exemption.

[Rekrab]

Very interesting, so what type of visa-holders could possess a firearm?

[rimfire78]

Wrong. In order for a person to have possession of a gun, they need to either be a US citizen (let's skip over the various prohibited categories like felons), or be a permanent resident (colloquially known as "green card"), or they have to have a valid hunting license from a state in the US. And the moment you rent or borrow a gun, you have possession of it.

This is federal law. Look it up in some ATF rule book, or contact the ATF. Since it is federal law, it also applies in Las Vegas.

Now, some shooting ranges are ignorant of this rule, and are willing to rent guns to non-residents without hunting licenses. That's a serious crime in the making.

I don't know how difficult it is to obtain a hunting license for a non-resident (tourist). The class typically takes a weekend, but I don't know whether non-residents are even allowed to take it. The only person I know who is a non-resident with a US hunting license got his hunting license by bringing a hunting license from his country of origin to California, and since his country has much more stringent rules for hunting licenses, he was issued a license without having to take the class.

If you want to do gun training while traveling: Israel has some very good programs that cater to foreigners. I have no personal experience with that, but a German friend of mine did a few training classes there.

This past winter I was at one of the ranges frankm was talking about in Vegas where you can shoot full autos. A bunch of Austrailians were on their way out while we were heading in. They asked if I'd take a few pictures of them in front of the store, and went on and on about what a great time they'd had and which guns they'd been shooting. So apparently it was ok for these guys to rent/shoot - and they told us they were tourists on their way home that day.

[HCz]

chainsaw is correct. However, at the same time, that law doesn't seem to be enforced. You see plenty of foreigners renting guns at the range.

[dyst0pia]

IANAL, and I don't mean to spread FUD, but I was researching this exact question for one of my friends a while back. I came across these articles:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/052507dntexterrorcharges.271768e.html

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=84784

Granted, there were extenuating circumstances (i.e., alleged, or maybe proven, links to terrorism. I didn't research long enough to figure that part out). But you'll notice that the charges they were convicted on weren't related to that; they were "possession of a firearm". I didn't find the original article for that second one, but if I remember, one of the pieces of evidence used was a photo of him with a rented gun at a shooting range.

Whether or not anybody it deems it appropriate to prosecute you for it, these convictions were enough to convince me that it's technically against the letter of the law, and probably not a particularly good idea. I was specifically interested in the student visa, since that's what my friend is on, but I imagine the rules would be the same for a tourist visa.

And again, not a lawyer, so take all this with a grain of salt. Personally, I wouldn't risk it, but I'm a pretty risk-averse kind of guy. How hard is it to get a hunting license in the UK? More importantly, could you then transfer that hunting license to California without taking the training course?