Non US citizen rules??

[Subotai]

This past winter I was at one of the ranges frankm was talking about in Vegas where you can shoot full autos. A bunch of Austrailians were on their way out while we were heading in. They asked if I'd take a few pictures of them in front of the store, and went on and on about what a great time they'd had and which guns they'd been shooting. So apparently it was ok for these guys to rent/shoot - and they told us they were tourists on their way home that day.

Lot's of Japanese do this too. Where's Gene! Maybe if an instructor is present it's not "possession" or "lending" or "rental"?

[gose]

So, the only thing I'm seeing this applying to is rental. If a non-us citizen were to go to the range while accompanied by a legal owner of a firearm the owner would be able to lend the gun to the non-resident because legally the gun has not been rented or left the legal possession of the owner, similar to how I can lend someone a 10+ round magazine while I am at the same range. Am I wrong? I read through Chapter 44 922 but didn't see anything that applied to this specific situation.

Magazines are slightly different, since possession is explicitly legal.

Possession is (like Chainsaw states above) "A person who knowingly has direct physical control over a thing at a given time". For firearms, if someone rents a firearms and walks onto a lane all by himself, he definitely has possession of the gun, which in the case of a non-exempt foreigner, would be a felony.

Though, I would probably argue that if the owner/instructor is close (ie within arms reach), he/she can still be considered to be in control of it, meaning that the possession hasn't really transferred.

So apparently it was ok for these guys to rent/shoot

Just because they did it doesnt mean it's legal

[Maestro Pistolero]

How is it that scores of European and Asian tourists come to Las Vegas and rent weapons and full auto machine guns at ranges here everyday?

[winnre]

So how hard is it to go to Big 5 and get a hunting license before going to the range?

[Glock22Fan]

Well,

I certainly purchased a firearm successfully before I got my Green Card approved. At that time I had applied for a Green Card and I did have a Work Permit. They accepted the Work Permit for the purchase. This was more than a dozen years ago - pre 9/11 in other words.

[CSACANNONEER]

WOW! I have shot with foreigners who have temporarily imported their guns into the states. I have even shot a Nemesis50 which was temporarliy imported from the UK by The Gun Room! Not "The Gun Room" in California but one in the UK. Now, why would customs allow this if they don't have a valid hunting license? Also, unless I missed something, many manufactures and attendies at SHOT would be breaking Federal law just by bringing samples to the show or handling samples while they are there.

Chester2005,

As long as we can figure out how to do it, I'd be more than happy to go shooting with you. I'm only about an hour from Long Beach so, shoot me a PM and we can talk. BTW, Do you know anyone from "The Gun Room"?

[CSACANNONEER]

So how hard is it to go to Big 5 and get a hunting license before going to the range?

How about IMPOSSIBLE! You need to either take a hunter's safety course first or be exempt from it. The courses are not given often enough anymore.

[IrishPirate]

I think it's one of those laws like "you can't drive without shoes", "you can't push a Moose out of an airplane", "if a woman is driving a car there has to be a man walking in front of her waiving two red flags", etc. I would guess that the vast majority of LEO's aren't even aware of this law and it is as close to a "non-issue" as possible. However, it's obviously a law that could get you in trouble, so TREAD LIGHTLY!!! Best to call the local authority where you're going and make sure that if you're shooting with friends or renting at a gun range you'll be ok. If they say it's good, you have plausible deniability in court should the worst ensue. Good luck, and have fun!

[GaryV]

And here is the plain English version on ATF's FAQ page...

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nonimmigrant-aliens.html#rental-qualifications

I believe there are some States that allow visitors to get temporary hunting licenses online without taking a hunting class. Maybe some of the hunters here on the forum can chime in on that. If you did that then you could rent firearms while visiting any State.

Okay, so I looked up the sections of 18 U.S.C. 922 which are cited at this link. Here they are:

18 U.S.C. 922

(a) It shall be unlawful –
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to
transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to
any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the
transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not
reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business
entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in
which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall
not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a
firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who
is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of
the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a
firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes;

(9) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, who does
not reside in any State to receive any firearms unless such
receipt is for lawful sporting purposes.

So, this section does not apply unless it is a transfer (which is not the case if you take a friend/family member shooting or rent at a range, for which there is a specific exception), and does not apply if the purpose is for "lawful sporting purposes".

18 U.S.C. 922

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise
dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or
having reasonable cause to believe that such person –
(5) who, being an alien -
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as
that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration
and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));

Again, this is talking about a transfer, not mere physical possession.

18 U.S.C. 922

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person –
(5) who, being an alien -
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as
that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration
and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess
in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive
any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in
interstate or foreign commerce.

This has to do with engaging in commerce, not mere possession. However, the last phrase "or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce" could be construed to include mere possession as long as the gun can be shown to have been transported in commerce across state or national borders. However "receive" generally legally implies a transfer, not mere possession. And that only makes sense since this section is just the "receiving" counterpart to the "selling" language in (d)(5)(B), which is clearly about transfer, not mere possession, just as section (a)(9) is the counterpart to section (a)(5). But for even more indication that no hunting license is needed, see the exception, which is also cited:

18 U.S.C. 922

(y) Provisions Relating to Aliens Admitted Under Nonimmigrant
Visas. –
2) Exceptions. - Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and
(s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that
alien is -
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or
sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or
permit lawfully issued in the United States;

If you simply say that you came to the US for the purposes of going shooting, it would seem that the possession of a hunting license is not required, especially since "sporting purposes" other than hunting are themselves sufficient.

Edit: Having read Chainsaw's post (#9) I see that the ATF has chosen to interpret sections (d) and (g) to mean mere possession, even though the language is pretty clearly otherwise. However, section (y)(A) includes 3 exceptions, not just having a hunting license.

[CHS]

If you simply say that you came to the US for the purposes of going shooting, it would seem that the possession of a hunting license is not required, especially since "sporting purposes" other than hunting are themselves sufficient.

I'm glad I just read this because I was about to post something about how this prohibition could never withstand a post Heller/McDonald challenge.

Fundamental rights apply to ANY lawful US visitor. Period.

[Josh3239]

When I was in Hawaii there was a Japanese couple on their honeymoon who didn't know how to say one word in English and the rented several guns (under close supervision of the rangemaster). I am sure Vegas makes some serious money from non-citizan tourists. I think it is safe to say that this law is not enforced an with regard to renting, would impossible to enforce.

[gose]

<snip>

Edit: Having read Chainsaw's post (#9) I see that the ATF has chosen to interpret sections (d) and (g) to mean mere possession, even though the language is pretty clearly otherwise. However, section (y)(A) includes 3 exceptions, not just having a hunting license.

Though ATF's interpretation on the first two exceptions is "attending an organized shooting event/competition or hunting trip and in possession of an approved Form 6 NIA"

Just saying you're here for hunting or sporting purposes is not enough.

When I was in Hawaii there was a Japanese couple on their honeymoon who didn't know how to say one word in English and the rented several guns (under close supervision of the rangemaster). I am sure Vegas makes some serious money from non-citizan tourists. I think it is safe to say that this law is not enforced an with regard to renting, would impossible to enforce.

Would be pretty easy to ensure compliance... Send in some ATF agents, document that the range is renting firearms to prohibited persons, charge the range and it's owners with a few felonies and shut it down and I'm sure that the renting of firearms to foreigners would disappear pretty darn quick...

[chester2005]

thanks to all who have inputted

hey guys what can i say???
thanks to all the comments and for the time and effort you have put into this question.
the way i read it now.....
if i am in the US for tourism and i go to a range then i am not breaking any laws???
i have no criminal record and do not know any reason why i would be unsuitable according to US law
i have used shotguns , i have handled ( a little years ago) but not fired handguns (ridiculously strict laws in UK even before they were banned) and that is what i would like to do now.

i must add... i have always found people helpful and friendly in CA (spent 4 months there over 2 years) and this forum is no exception to that...thanks again

[gose]

the way i read it now.....
if i am in the US for tourism and i go to a range then i am not breaking any laws???

Then you read it wrong...

The thread so far, compressed into two lines:
Most likely, you would be committing a felony if you go to a shooting range.
Most likely, you would not get caught.

[Subotai]

Tons of foreigner's shoot on American ranges. I seriously doubt all those ranges would do this if it was against the law. Course, some here disagree. I refer to my previous post. Chester should call the ranges directly and ask them about it.