Home/Propert Defense

[plinko]

I'm not sure if this is the correct spot to ask this question but my parents house just got vandalized last week by someone and they spray painted swastikas all over the place. This was done as they were sleeping. My wife and I stay there 2 nights during the week so they could babysit our daughter during the day. I grew up in this house and we've been there for almost 30years!...this is in the city of Glendora.

Anyhow, my question is, if it happens again and I catch them in the act, if I go running out of the house with my shotgun and they decide to try to attack me, I wouldn't want to shoot them to kill but if I had to would that be the right thing to do to protect myself or is it "allowed" only if it's a home invasion and they have a weapon...

They could be stupid kids but to me it's more person since it feels more like a hate crime and that we're singled out. It's an older neighborhood and we know everyone there so I'm not sure if this is just a random act. I'm kinda in a dilemma on what to do. Besides adding more lighting and cameras now, I'm not sure that would be much of a deterrent.

[bigmike82]

It's a tough decision that YOU need to really think about before you go preparing for anything.

Will you really be able to live with having to kill someone over some grafitti? Is going after a simple vandal with a deadly weapon worth it? What if you run out there with your shotgun, tell the perp to stop, and he ignores you?

I'm a huge proponent of protecting personal property, but you need to develop an action plan beforehand. Immediately escalating to deadly force without knowing if someone who's tagging is armed or not may not be the correct way of doing it.

If faced with this situation, I would have a holstered pistol on my belt, along with pepper spray, a very very bright flashlight, and some cuffs. You go out there and perform a citizens arrest. If the perp refuses, you spray them and get them to comply. Or they run away. If they're armed, your pistol is ready.

Think of it like a police office would approach it. Granted, the rules of engagement for civilians are more relaxed, but you have a lot fewer protections. You need to be able to use reasonable force on the bad guy. Shooting an unarmed person who's just tagging is a good way of giving your house and property to his family.

Sorry if my reply is a bit jumbled, but this is an extremely complicated situation. You must figure this out beforehand, and make double damn sure you have the physical ability to defend what's yours before you try to do so. If you don't...if you have a handicapp, if you're old, if you're too out of shape...your best bet is to let the pros handle it (or get a big dog).

[Bill Carson]

Plenty of news stories of people confronting taggers/graffiti vandals and being shot and killed because the taggers were gangmembers. I assume this graffiti is outside, if it is it's better to call the police.

[Juice5610]

Dude really? running out of your house with a shotgun over some taggers? Take it easy killer

[khw9mm]

I'm sorry to hear about the problem. I always thought Glendora was a nice peaceful community and I'm sure it still is so probably a random act. It is hate crime and sad to see it happen so close to me.

However, if I were in you position, I'd do exactly as you say about installing more lights and camera and call them cops if they ever come back. Don't go out with a shotgun over some loser taggers, they probably don't even know what that really means and just saw it on the TV news last weekend.

[plinko]

Yeah, I know running out with a shotgun is extreme..I just wanted to know about some possible options...I don't plan to go the route I initially talked about but used it as an example...Pepper spray and cuff would most likely be enough though..

thanks for you input...

[Snake eyes]

At first glance the answer seems obvious- "Spray paint isn't worth taking a life."

However, like most things in life, the situation is actually a lot more complicated.

First of all, the OP didn't give any indication that he WANTS to shoot or kill anyone. He didn't come on here and say "THOSE GODDAMN MOTHER-FERS, I'M GONNA BLOW THEIR HEADS OFF IF I EVER CATCH THEM!" Instead, I'd say his attitude is very reasonable and mature.

Second, It's very easy to tell someone else to just stay in their home and wait for the police to show. But what if vandals were taking a sledgehammer to your car? Would you just wait inside for them to finish, and then check the damage after they leave? What if it was someone stealing your car from your driveway? Would you just say "Ehh, it's just a car, not worth the risk of maybe having to shoot someone. I'll let them have it."

Third, While in theory calling the cops and letting them handle it sounds good, the fact of the matter is that vandalism isn't exactly a top priority for the police. You'll be lucky if they show up the next morning. And unless you have some solid proof regarding who the vandals are, don't expect an arrest. After all, it's not like a murder, don't expect a major investigation or a countywide manhunt. Maybe if you've got good video of the vandals, the local news MIGHT air it, and MAYBE someone will identify the scum and call the cops. MAYBE.

Fourth, if the cops can't catch them, and if no one else stops them, they could come back agin and agin and agin, ect, ect. And the damage could get worse. I wonder how many people would be willing to live with the ongoing damage before they decided to do something about it themselves.

It's always a personal choice whether or not to confront someone commiting a property crime against you. And there is no greater moment of PERSONAL RESPONSABILITY then when you confront another person with a weapon in your hand. In doing so, you might find yourself in a situation where you HAVE NO CHOICE but to KILL someone (and possibly end up in prison), or, YOU might be the one who gets killed. And anytime you fire a gun, there is always the chance of an innocent person being struck and maybe killed (also sending you to prison). These are the HARSH REALITIES of armed defense. Make sure you understand them before heading out the door.

To the OP I would suggest learning what the local laws are on how far you can go to defend your property. I would also reccomend installing QUALITY cameras (not the least expensive junk), especially if you plan on confronting the vandals. If you have to use force, the video could back up your version of events in court.

Personally, if someone were attacking my property, they would meet me with a gun in my hand, not wanting to use it, but READY to use it. But that's me, long ago I fully accepted the responsabilities of mounting an armed defense.

[Snake eyes]

If I were going to confront a criminal in the commision of a crime, I'd want nothing less than a GUN in my hand.

If you confront a criminal (or multiple criminals) with nothing but peper spray and hand-cuffs, and it turns out they have a knife or a gun, chances are good that we're gonna hear about you on the news, as a guy who was killed while confronting a vandal.

I say, either be prepared for the worst, or stay behind a locked door.

[Sh00tFurst]

As a guy who was killed while confronting a vandal.

I say, either be prepared for the worst, or stay behind a locked door.

Holy shiite dude, you're dead?

[bsg]

i am sympathetic to your situation and your concern for your family is evident. i would not advise running out of the house and confronting anyone; but rather to call "911" if you detect prowlers or taggers outside and stay inside to ensure your family's safety. and from a strategical position, you don't want to go out to deal with the potential of numerous adversaries while leaving your family unprotected; frankly you are the first and last wall of defense for your family. if you risk your life to defend a wall or other inanimate object outside the home, your family inside the home may then be defenseless and unprotected should you fail at your effort. your responsibility to protect goes beyond your desire to right a wrong. sit down with your parents and make a decision as a family regarding dealing with this and any similar events should it happen again. i would suggest you contact local law enforcement with your concerns as well. i wish you the very best and please keep us updated....

-Brady-

[SOCMOB]

Find your city's Crime Prevention officer.

They're in charge of finding all the little juvie delinquents and making sure they're in school, in a program, following their probation, or in juvie where they belong.

I had a situation cooking along in Sunnyvale (Slummyvale) that was GOING to end up with a lot of little ratbastards dead until I found the right cop and he cleaned up the situation like the Orkin Man on a termite nest.

The regular cops, and God bless 'em, are there to take care of immediate problems. They're not so good at spotting and averting an escalation that will lead to deaths on one side or both. That's what the Crime Prevention guys do.

When the time comes, we won't have to go through so many steps. For now, it come down to finding the right person on your local force. I only found out because the little bastards weren't in school, so I called child protective services of all things, they directed me to the Crime Prevention unit.

You can and probably also should, contact the media. Yeah it gives the little bastards some publicity, but it's better than covering it up and finding your parents dead due to the little Nazi ratbastards.

[1-shot-1-kill]

dont do nada
if they threaten your life your justified if its just tagging screw it call the popo
unless they are in your home or you feel your life or your fam's life is in danger shooting them will just get you thrown in jail for man slaughter
and if ya do have to shoot
give a verbal warning loud and clear
and you have to shoot to kill but only if your life is in danger not your property
anyway take photos of the tagging give a copy to the police they should know roughly who is doing it tagging is a signature of sorts

[bigmike82]

"I say, either be prepared for the worst, or stay behind a locked door. "
Right. But you keep it holstered. Again...you come out, gun up, and tell the perp to drop the spray can. He doesn't. You gonna shoot him? Bad, bad idea.

You gotta be prepared to use the correct amount of force necessary to MAKE THE ARREST. This involves being mentally and physically prepared. Don't do it if you can't handle the situation.

[DaveFJ80]

This is the most reasonable answer so far from what I've read, and I bolded the highlights.....

First of all, the OP didn't give any indication that he WANTS to shoot or kill anyone. He didn't come on here and say "THOSE GODDAMN MOTHER-FERS, I'M GONNA BLOW THEIR HEADS OFF IF I EVER CATCH THEM!" Instead, I'd say his attitude is very reasonable and mature.

Second, It's very easy to tell someone else to just stay in their home and wait for the police to show. But what if vandals were taking a sledgehammer to your car? Would you just wait inside for them to finish, and then check the damage after they leave? What if it was someone stealing your car from your driveway? Would you just say "Ehh, it's just a car, not worth the risk of maybe having to shoot someone. I'll let them have it."

Third, While in theory calling the cops and letting them handle it sounds good, the fact of the matter is that vandalism isn't exactly a top priority for the police. You'll be lucky if they show up the next morning. And unless you have some solid proof regarding who the vandals are, don't expect an arrest. After all, it's not like a murder, don't expect a major investigation or a countywide manhunt. Maybe if you've got good video of the vandals, the local news MIGHT air it, and MAYBE someone will identify the scum and call the cops. MAYBE.

Fourth, if the cops can't catch them, and if no one else stops them, they could come back agin and agin and agin, ect, ect. And the damage could get worse. I wonder how many people would be willing to live with the ongoing damage before they decided to do something about it themselves.

It's always a personal choice whether or not to confront someone commiting a property crime against you. And there is no greater moment of PERSONAL RESPONSABILITY then when you confront another person with a weapon in your hand. In doing so, you might find yourself in a situation where you HAVE NO CHOICE but to KILL someone (and possibly end up in prison), or, YOU might be the one who gets killed. And anytime you fire a gun, there is always the chance of an innocent person being struck and maybe killed (also sending you to prison). These are the HARSH REALITIES of armed defense. Make sure you understand them before heading out the door.

To the OP I would suggest learning what the local laws are on how far you can go to defend your property. I would also reccomend installing QUALITY cameras (not the least expensive junk), especially if you plan on confronting the vandals. If you have to use force, the video could back up your version of events in court.

Personally, if someone were attacking my property, they would meet me with a gun in my hand, not wanting to use it, but READY to use it. But that's me, long ago I fully accepted the responsabilities of mounting an armed defense.

I can understand putting 'fear' into the vandals by running out with your shotgun, but I've also seen it lead to worse events. Not just the vandals having a gun on them at the time, but they know NEXT TIME to come packing heat and to be ready for you if/when you come running out of the house again. People are crazy, just look at most LA drivers with road rage (remember a few years ago when people were shooting each other on the roads?), it takes just a little to provoke somebody before they take action.... action which may cause somebody to die, but it's action where they will "shoot first, ask questions later."

The point is, just be ready for the consequences that follow when you go running out with a gun in hand to 'scare' away the vandals. These days, you never know what's going to happen next.

[Big Jake]

This could be considered a hate crime because of the Swastikas. This is especially true if you are Jewish. I hope the police catch the bastards! Stay safe and good luck.