Argument I'm having

[zeke2517]

Very Well said Road Warrior. it follows the same line of reasnosning as to why the Japanese never planned a mainland assault in WWII; too many civialians carry guns.

[macadamizer]

Incorrect, the more good-guys with guns a bad guy faces, and from different directions/heterogenous parties/groups/, times, the better. All the cops were ambushed because they were together in a homogenous group and were probably LOST in their illusion of safety. Imagine if customers nearby saw or caught on the event ABOUT to happen but were unarmed and powerless and did NOTHING (lest the shooter take them out for calling the alarm). Imagine the employees, maybe they might have noticed and instead of ducking and hiding, pulled a gun to shoot bad guy. It really is simple. The bad guy was VERY confident that the ONLY armed people were the cops, so he believed his ambush would WORK. And it DID. Because he was RIGHT, only the cops were armed!!! The bad guy was a CIVILIAN dress so if HE could do that with ONE gun, IMAGINE (use that brain buddy) what ANOTHER CIVILIAN with CCW, even UOC could have done.) Don't place limits on the possibility of remedy since a GOOD-GUY civilian in this situation could be across the street, or walking behind the bad guy about to do his deeds.) YOU LOSE. That BAD guy would NOT have pulled off his crime if he saw 1, 2, or 8 people in the area UOC!!! WAKE UP!!! You reason and talk like a disinfo agent for the gun controllers!!!

When it comes to 2A and gun grabbers, there is a DISTINCT little effeminate voice that calls one to be WEAK, to be AFRAID, to SURRENDER, to ignore READINESS, to give in to STUPID COWARDLY LYING REASON. To heed this voice is NOT worthy of True Men but a trademark of Tyrants and their Liberal Lemmings that want to rape you of your will, your freedom, your choice to decide for yourself! Give them the pistol whip!!

You are missing the point too. Look at this in context -- the OP was asking how to convince a non-gunnie friend that there was value in UOC in a coffee shop. Someone brought up the example of the 4 cops getting shot in Seattle as a situation where UOC would have, or could have made a difference.

You don't seem to get that I am not saying that UOC wouldn't have made a difference in this situation. My point is that if you look at this from the perspective of an anti, you have 4 people that were LOC already, trained to use their guns, and all got shot. If you look at it from that perspective, an anti-gun person could reasonably conclude that simply adding more open carriers would not have changed the outcome. This makes this a poor example to use to try and convince an anti.

I simply don't see that your argument "well, the cops were just complacent" or "there's no way that this guy would have done what he did had others been UOC" as a compelling argument for someone who is already inclined to not want more guns in the area. You seem to miss that point. Your argument is only compelling to those who already see having more people armed as a good thing -- which I am sure virtually everyone, if not everyone, on this board already agrees with.

The point of this thread -- and the point of my post -- was to try and find compelling arguments for people not already inclined to think that way. That's why I suggested the Texas restaurant massacre as a better example of where someone with a gun really could have done some good, or the SLC mall shooting where someone with a gun was able to stop a shooting from being a whole lot worse. Those are far more compelling arguments.

Again, try and look at the Washington situation objectively, without personal politics -- someone walked into a coffee shop and killed 4 people who were openly carrying firearms. Loaded ones, at that. By using this as an example to try and convince someone already convinced that it wouldn't help to have people UOC in a coffee shop, you are starting your argument already deep a hole.

That's my point.

[Untamed1972]

You are missing the point too. Look at this in context -- the OP was asking how to convince a non-gunnie friend that there was value in UOC in a coffee shop. Someone brought up the example of the 4 cops getting shot in Seattle as a situation where UOC would have, or could have made a difference.

You don't seem to get that I am not saying that UOC wouldn't have made a difference in this situation. My point is that if you look at this from the perspective of an anti, you have 4 people that were LOC already, trained to use their guns, and all got shot. If you look at it from that perspective, an anti-gun person could reasonably conclude that simply adding more open carriers would not have changed the outcome. This makes this a poor example to use to try and convince an anti.

I simply don't see that your argument "well, the cops were just complacent" or "there's no way that this guy would have done what he did had others been UOC" as a compelling argument for someone who is already inclined to not want more guns in the area. You seem to miss that point. Your argument is only compelling to those who already see having more people armed as a good thing -- which I am sure virtually everyone, if not everyone, on this board already agrees with.

The point of this thread -- and the point of my post -- was to try and find compelling arguments for people not already inclined to think that way. That's why I suggested the Texas restaurant massacre as a better example of where someone with a gun really could have done some good, or the SLC mall shooting where someone with a gun was able to stop a shooting from being a whole lot worse. Those are far more compelling arguments.

Again, try and look at the Washington situation objectively, without personal politics -- someone walked into a coffee shop and killed 4 people who were openly carrying firearms. Loaded ones, at that. By using this as an example to try and convince someone already convinced that it wouldn't help to have people UOC in a coffee shop, you are starting your argument already deep a hole.

That's my point.

I see your point. It's just a convenient example to use because it happened IN a coffee shop like in the context of the OPs arguement. But it also must be remember that the man who killed those LEOs was not simply looking for people with guns, he was specfically looking for COPs to kill, so it could have just as easily happened anywhere.

If anything it is a good example however of just how easily a SHTF situation can develope anywhere w/o a ounce of notice and finding yourself with no other defense but to try and run or duck for cover is a pretty crappy situation to hafta find one's self in when your life hangs in the balance.

OP, I would ask your friends to imagain themselves in that coffee shop when the gunfire started, and then ask them what options they would like to have at their disposal at that split second to make sure they survived? And obviously calling the COPs aint gonna help cuz 4 of them are there already and it didn't do a damn bit of good. And remind them, that any option the choose must be able to be imployed in a split seconds time because I'm sure that whole encounter went down in around a minute, maybe even less.

Once they come up with an answer for themselves, now ask them to imagine one of more of their loved ones is there also, what options would they like to have at their immediate disposal to protect not only themselves but their loved ones?

I think it is fair to say that the BG was likely mostly focused on the COPs and the act he was about to perpetrate. So a patron already in the place that might have been carrying would have prolly just blended into the background. When the guy started his attack he would have been focused on the COPs he was shooting at. So someone else in the place could have easily drawn a weapon, even loaded if he was UOC in an extreme example, and shot the guy in the back w/o the BG every know he was there or been able to react.

So I think if you use that coffee shop example and ask your friends to place themselves in that situation you might be able to lead them down the path a little. Sometimes it can be hard though because so many people in our society have had the instinct to act for themselves "bred out" of them. It can take a bit to get someone to allow their own mind to start thinking in those terms. We live in the times of "dont resist and give the badguys what they want and they wont hurt you" that people don't know how to think any other way.

[roadwarrior1971]

Simply put, the MORE people UOC or CCW, the safer society would be against acts of violence like this. However, I know the cowardly liberal reaction of fear at the mere thought of that. The ninnies are looking for ANY reason whatsoever to have LESS guns in public. I can see some soiling their pants at the mere mention of "gun." The fact that a gunman could kill four cops in a coffee shop WITH A GUN, is proof that ONE PERSON WITH ONE GUN CAN DO ALOT.

The fact is some ninnies have incurable cowardice that cannot be cured by reason nor fact. Ninny-cowardice is an irrational emotion. It's like these people think if they were Jews being slaughtered by Germans in a concentration camp, they would NOT want to have guns. I sincerely hope ninnies will change their ways but if NOT, good riddance if they are lemming-victims.

Criminals are jubilantly confident that cops are the ONLY ones in an area of "opportunity" that have a firearm.

LISTEN CAREFULLY, please take your current thinking cap off and try this for size:

1. If you don't got a military/tactical mind, you will NEVER understand why UOC could have prevented, minimized, or at least shot that SOB dead and served as a warning to more attempts like this. Since ninny liberal minds don't have military SHTF tactical thinking, I must elaborate and Illustrate: I can load a semiauto magazine, chamber a round, and fire several rounds all within 2-3 seconds so if I had UOC, I could have taken him out. If they are within 10-15 feet, chances are I can get a clean C.O.M. shot, especially if their back is turned to me. I know why ninnies don't think UOC would help. It's liberal ninnies that would soil their pants and run like children at the sight of a playground bully. Their COWARDLY mind is in a SMALL BOX, to only get slaughtered, soil their pants or BOTH. So I'll give a crude graphic representation of the tactical situation with notes: BG = bad guy, --> = cop facing direction.

Example 1: What likely happened.

BAD GUY advantages:

1. Probably a flanking or rear attack on at least on or two of the cops

2. He may have had at least TWO cops between himself and two other cops, who operated as a type of temporary cover/obstacle and easy victims with less ability to react, "pop, pop" two cops are dead, less than 3/4 second. Two more to go who spilled their coffee, don't even have guns in hand and are in PANIC.

3. meaning they'd have to fire over/through/past each others.

4. They were all likely sitting close to each other which means easier followup shots.

5. Don't forget: Element of Surprise (this allows for one to be more prepared for about to occur events, reactions, this is the FIRST STRIKE etc.)

6. He chose the field of battle, he was in control of the situation and confident

7. He probably made absolutely sure his gun was completely loaded, chambered, off safe, etc. And may have even pulled out an extra magazine in his hand, maybe even in a coat pocket ready to reload. That's what I'd do. (Think like the criminal to understand how they'd maximize, simplify their assault.)

8. At least one or two were probably holding their Cups of coffee/maybe food/donuts/bagels in hand(s)/in their RIGHT hands when the guy starts shooting. BUT the bad guy has his gun in his hand, pop, pop, pop, pop

9. Cops Confusion/Panic, different from Element of surprise. The effect is more "First-strike" like attacks/shots. The SHTF in their face, they may have panicked, they are shot, getting shot, their partners/colleagues heads blowing up in their face.

10. Cops had their guns holstered

11. Cops may have had hesitation on firing in coffee shop where civilians were

12. Bad guy likely had no hesitation to shoot bystanders "who got in the way", it's their fault, casually dismissed as "wrong time, wrong place"

13. Sitting ducks, cops were likely sitting down, limiting mobility/ability to seek cover

14. Shooter has total confidence his only threats are these four cops, and that NO ONE will DARE stop him, unarmed sheep.

15. Shooter has mobility, can change direction of attack, duck, run etc.

16. Shooter had gun in his hand when shooting started

Any one got any other ideas, isn't this enough?

So the argument is IF you were those four cops, with LOADED carry, yeah you might have been killed too. But the argument here is not necessarily that. For one thing, if EVERYONE or even half, or a quarter of the CUSTOMERS were UOC, then that bad guy would have a BAD DAY.

I'm going to tell you the truth, alot of cops are ARROGANTLY overconfident. Maybe they got 3 or 4 of their buddies, maybe they got bullet resistant vests on. Maybe they've NEVER fired their guns or been shot at in a LIFE OR DEATH situation.

So boil it down to 4 points:

1. COPS + CIVILIAN UOC either beat bad guy or DISCOURAGE attack

2. CIVILIAN UOC usually are in groups and have a different mindset, they are repeatedly thinking, "I'm ready for SHTF" Cops get worshipped, are feared by most so they CAN have an invincibility/superiority complex, especially in groups of 3-4. UOC realize they need time to load mag, chamber, so they have an EXTRA LEVEL OF VIGILANCE, they don't get "COMFY"

3. Reduction/Elimination of BAD GUY advantages and increase GOOD GUY advantages, example. Surrounding bad guy, ambushing the ambusher


4. LEST WE FORGET, the ninny mind will NEVER seek victory through force in defense or offense so no amount of rational and tactical FACTS will convince them, they are FODDER for criminals to MURDER, RAPE, MUG, TORTURE, etc. GOOD RIDDANCE. Effeminate men are a SHAME to the human race and are worthy of DESTRUCTION by evil men.

So he probably shot the cops who had his backs or sides to him, the cops first instincts may have been to either stand up, pull their guns out, or maybe even duck under the table for cover before pulling gun out. Maybe they were so shocked they may have barely unholstered their guns.

Very Probable scenario:

-------------------------------
|*************************|
|*********or BG***--> <-- *|
|****************--> <-- *|
|************************| |
|******************BG****|
|************************|
************************|
------------|Door |------------


How to convince the LESS GUNS-minded that MORE GUNS are better????

well in texas restaurant, MORE GUNS in victim's hands was the solution, even ONE gun could have stopped him.
Get it through your head, guns and MORE guns in the hands of GOOD GUYS is the ONLY solution to bad guys with guns.
Let the anti-gunners go to the restaurants with disarmed victims, and concentration camps in Nazi Germany, I think in ONE HOT SECOND, they MIGHT have the idea enter their PEA-SIZED brains they'd like to have a gun to increase their chances to live or at least KILL ONE OF THESE SOB'S. However, that idea is NOT ENOUGH. There is NOT ENOUGH courage-meter in their CAJONES to want the gun, hold the gun, shoot it.

There is NO SOLUTION for cowardice, guns won't help them because they are TOO AFRAID TO SAVE THEMSELVES!!! So there is NO "SALVATION" for NINNIES. No reason will ever get them to understand. They have a PHYSICAL structure of emotion/memory/personality of WEAKENSS that is a part of their brain/memory brain cells/wiring/their cajones/their life experiences reinforcing fear/cowardice/helplessness. The only cure and argument is a physical brain operation to cut out the cowardice out of their PSYCHE/brain. Maybe doses of testosterone would help too.

So the poster I am debating is severely limiting his ability to understand the situation of MORE or LESS GUNS in good guys hands versus guns in bad guys hands. You are thinking through their minds and this leads to a dead end, because it is their mind that is a dead end, it is DEATH as a VICTIM as the ONLY OUTCOME.

**** STOP drinking fluoridated water/using fluoride toothpaste and take Nutridine Iodine, it flushes out fluoride (flu-ore-ide (hint in wording?)) out of the pineal and thyroid glands so they function correctly. Indeed, during mining fluoride, workers got SICK. Fluoride calcifies the PINEAL GLAND that is responsible for the minds SURVIVAL INSTINCT. Now you know why Hitler put fluoride in the concentration camp water supply for the prisoners.********

http://www.fluoridealert.org/fluoridation.htm

http://www.fluoridealert.org/Lancet-1946.htm

http://iicph.org/fluoride_primer

http://www.oasisadvancedwellness.com/learning/fluoride-history.html

"2006
The NRC releases a report suggesting that the current upper limit for fluoride in water could cause tooth damage, bone fractures, and neurological problems and may be connected to certain cancers. It recommends the EPA lower the safe exposure limit."

Now you know why DENTISTS get WORK, but of course the many poor cannot pay their bills. The dentist that put my silver-MERCURY fillings in my mouth committed suicide. The likely cause of being broke and the fact that MERCURY exposure is linked to higher rates of SUICIDE.

TFH? Read the label on the tube of toothpaste, that's why it says 'If you accidentally swallow toothpaste, call POISON CONTROL.'

[Untamed1972]

Actually......someone posted a story here the other day about how a COP stopped some suspicious guys waiting in a car in the dark outside a pancake house in GA recently. Found the guys were waiting to rob the place. They told the LEO they were gonna rob it earlier but when they went in there were some patron OCing and so left and went outside and were waiting for them patrons with guns to leave.

There is a good example right there. do a search, it was just posted in the last week sometime and refer your friends to that.

[Bill Carson]

We would CCW if we could. A civilian that UOC'd or CCW'd could have executed the perp while he was executing those cops in Seattle. Usually the people that flip out when they are told they cannot have their dog in a certain place are the owners of those lap dogs.

[Snake eyes]

Rule #1- Don't be friends with stupid, err, I mean anti-gun people. Even if their "just a little" anti.

Rule #2- Don't argue with stupid people.

I'm of the mind that once an adult forms an opinion their not likely to change it, especially if it's a stupid opinion. From what I've seen, many "antis" aren't just ignorant, they are content and bask in their ignorance.

Of course there are rare exceptions, but I just don't have the energy to try and "convert" the willfully ignorant.

[roadwarrior1971]

One must understand the mind of a ninny-liberal gun-banner/grabber. They fear guns. Their prime emotional drive is based on fear and weakness, resulting in dependence. They depend on big govt, they depend on he police to protect them when the police arrive minutes after their assailant killed/mugged/raped them and got away, they depend on welfare the state, they depend on the likes of Obama and any other lying politician regardless of political party-yes-even conservatives can be liberals in denial, they hope, they pine away like some hopeless romantic like some elusive all-powerful hero will save them but he/it never does, it is a feminine mechanism of denial of responsibility, denial of initiative, denial of self-dignity, denial of self-power. These people live in disney land. They are worthless trash. These are harsh words but they are the reason gun control, and taxes, and political corruption has grown out of control in this country and world. The weak are the lemmings of fascist/socialist govt. The weak want ALL to be weak but they are in for a surprise. Those they trust are going to stab them in the back when their bank accts fail, when their 401k's are gone, when their country is gone, when they are herded like the stupid animals they are.

You see, no matter the straight up logic and facts you give a NINNY, they will always reason from fear and weakness and will refuse to acknowledge that you can actually protect yourself. They will use that 100% potential of brain power and ONLY use it to stay in their box of INSISTING they be weak, disarmed victims that get slaughtered. Their own mind is their own worst enemy, because they betray themselves. If the brain was a like a hand (able to feel and manipulate the world) with five fingers and an opposable thumb, the NINNY has decided to cut off their thumbs and 3 1/2 fingers of each hand. They will use that half finger on their hand to raise it and ask permission to speak and BEG to be spared before they are killed. They have been mind-controlled into being sheep. Stupid sheep. They don't even run, they just freeze, don't even run, and get eaten alive by wolves. They are worthless. Do not be infected by the ninny brain-dead mentality.

They take one example, perspective, or opinion no matter how WEAK it is and want to paint the whole world with it. Guns are quite simple. Just point and shoot. Old women and ladies have used them to SAVE their lives and their loved ones. But NO, the liberal cannot even do better that woman or old woman (no offense to ladies nor the elderly). So in essence, you must exorcise the cowardice out of the ninnies before they can even think straight and logical to acknowledge the conclusive truth that your odds are better you survive if you have a gun when faced with bad guys. If that can't be done, just give up. They are dead weight, dead men/women standing.

[xibunkrlilkidsx]

There is a bit of fail with some of your friends... You can get new friends btw...!

I like this one lol.

simple, quick no trying to get a liberal to use common sense. its like their krypton.

[roadwarrior1971]

I like this one lol.

simple, quick no trying to get a liberal to use common sense. its like their krypton.

But it's so much fun to stump liberal ninnies and leave them stammering, speechless. Even if they never agree with you, that's fine. The satisfaction of proving them wrong when they know you did (even though they won't dare utter an admission of defeat) is PRICELESS. LOL!!! You are smart enough to do that aren't you???