Argument I'm having

[ETD1010]

So I posted a status on facebook about the starbucks thing... here are my responses. One of my friends is frustrating me. He's not anti-gun in the harshest sense of the word, but enough to agree with a lot of the gun control going on.

Jane
Jane
we got people carrying concealed, loaded weapons on our campus http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/20/cnnu.guns/index.html

John
John
Fair point.
Yesterday at 8:11pm

[0321jarhead]

The very first quote on the top of your list I believe says it all. Yes I believe we should be able to carry. Concealed carry! But doing it the right way. With a permit. I know some counties in our wonderful state are tight when it comes to concealed carry. But lets just say wheather its one pistol owner or more walk in a well known city that has a lot of criminal violence. Lets say Richmond in the triangle area. The bad guy drives by and unloads on you. You are down, wounded. Now what? Or, a bad guy approaches you from the front and you have that feeling of "OH S**T!! What do you do? You are shaking of fear and you need to load. YOU LOOSE! Yes I wish we as law abiding citezens could all carry concealed. Open carry is playing Russian roulette. That is my opinion. Be careful and be safe.

[easy]

"Quote:
John
John
You don't need a gun in a coffee house, ever. Ever. "

I wonder how things would have turned out in Seattle?

[Okota]

As I understand it, if open carriers COULD concealed carry they would. In this state, UOC is the only recourse we have, legally. I'm more likely to crap coat hangers than be issued a CCW.

And John's point about not having the authority to use deadly force that police do, how about my God-given right to protect my life and those of my loved ones? In a life and death situation of course I'd prefer the police be there to protect me but I'm not going to bet the lives of my family that they will be.

[asgalindez]

You don't need a gun in a coffee house, ever. Ever.

And what was his response when you mentioned the Seattle Coffee Shop shooting of 4 police officers? You did throw that in his face, right?

[Untamed1972]

Don't need a gun in a coffee house huh?


I seem to remember 4 police officers up north getting gunned down by a felon in a coffee house.


Perhaps you should remind your friend of that.


Had someone else been packin' heat in the coffee house that day, that bad guy might not have been able to shoot them all, or at least not make it out the front door and get away.

[macadamizer]

And what was his response when you mentioned the Seattle Coffee Shop shooting of 4 police officers? You did throw that in his face, right?

Not sure that's the best comeback -- didn't those four people shot have guns? And that it didn't matter? Seems like this actually makes their point to some extent -- if four trained officers couldn't stop this guy, why would someone believe that some random Joe with a gun would have.

(Note: not saying I buy this line of reasoning, only pointing out that this particular incident probably isn't the strongest support. The Texas restaurant shooting is probably a much better example. Or the SLC mall incident a few years back.)

[asgalindez]

Not sure that's the best comeback -- didn't those four people shot have guns? And that it didn't matter? Seems like this actually makes their point to some extent -- if four trained officers couldn't stop this guy, why would someone believe that some random Joe with a gun would have.

(Note: not saying I buy this line of reasoning, only pointing out that this particular incident probably isn't the strongest support. The Texas restaurant shooting is probably a much better example. Or the SLC mall incident a few years back.)

In the context of the arguement (carrying in Starbucks/coffee shop & need to carry a gun being un-necessary) I would venture to say that a gun was needed in the Seattle incident. The 4 LEO's were ambushed while they were on their laptops (according to an article I read) before going on their shifts and unable to react 'til it was too late. I'm not saying that a civilian with a gun would've saved the day, but could've stopped the perp from making it out the door. Personally, I'd shoot a guy that just shot 4 police officers.

I agree that the Texas restaurant shooting is a better example. I'm assuming this is the one you're referring to:

[SDgarrick]

Not sure that's the best comeback -- didn't those four people shot have guns? And that it didn't matter? Seems like this actually makes their point to some extent -- if four trained officers couldn't stop this guy, why would someone believe that some random Joe with a gun would have.

(Note: not saying I buy this line of reasoning, only pointing out that this particular incident probably isn't the strongest support. The Texas restaurant shooting is probably a much better example. Or the SLC mall incident a few years back.)

Fail. Come on buddy, how would it have not helped if a CCW holder had been present, when the uniformed officers were being ambushed?

[macadamizer]

Fail. Come on buddy, how would it have not helped if a CCW holder had been present, when the uniformed officers were being ambushed?

That's not the point -- the point is, look at it from an anti-gunner's point of view. Bring this event up as a reason why people should carry in a coffee ship, an anti-gun guy is going to simply going to say there was already 4 people in the shop with guns, and that it didn't do any good -- and not just 4 people with guns, 4 trained people -- how would another person with a gun change matters?

I'm not advocating that position -- I am just pointing out that if you are trying to sell the position that carrying a gun in a coffee shop is a good thing, using an example where it failed is probably not the best way to frame your argument.

[Seesm]

There is a bit of fail with some of your friends... You can get new friends btw...!

[SDgarrick]

That's not the point -- the point is, look at it from an anti-gunner's point of view. Bring this event up as a reason why people should carry in a coffee ship, an anti-gun guy is going to simply going to say there was already 4 people in the shop with guns, and that it didn't do any good -- and not just 4 people with guns, 4 trained people -- how would another person with a gun change matters?

I'm not advocating that position -- I am just pointing out that if you are trying to sell the position that carrying a gun in a coffee shop is a good thing, using an example where it failed is probably not the best way to frame your argument.

I see your point, but i don't think it's accurate to say it failed. Nobody else in the room had a gun, so we can't know if it would fail or prevail, judgments one way or the other are pure speculation.

[Army]

You can look at the Seattle murders two ways:

The four Cops were ambushed..they had little, to absolutely no clue the bad guy had that plan. An open carrier there, is instantly alerted to the situation and draws his weapon, loads, and kills the bad guy, possibly saving Cop lives, and saving two days of manhunt and additional arrests of the bad guy family.

Or:

The bad guy first shoots at the open carrier, immediately alerting 4 Cops to the situation, and shoot the bad guy, saving two days of manhunt and additional arrests of bad guy family.

Either way....everyone in that shop really really really needed their guns.

[roadwarrior1971]

Fail. Come on buddy, how would it have not helped if a CCW holder had been present, when the uniformed officers were being ambushed?

EXACTLY, those four cops were probably too relaxed, overconfident that not only they were cops, but that they had NUMBERS. When the SHTF, their training and frame of mind was: "OH SH*T, we're all going to die!!! Someone got the jump on us!!!"
Notice in the story that no other bystanders, customers, or employees were shot. This would be an excellent opportunity for a CCW to shoot the bad guy before or after incident, perhaps he'd notice the bad guy had intention since CCW are in frame of mind to be aware of bad guys and be READY to pull it out and use it if any situation arises or appears suspicious.

[roadwarrior1971]

That's not the point -- the point is, look at it from an anti-gunner's point of view. Bring this event up as a reason why people should carry in a coffee ship, an anti-gun guy is going to simply going to say there was already 4 people in the shop with guns, and that it didn't do any good -- and not just 4 people with guns, 4 trained people -- how would another person with a gun change matters?

I'm not advocating that position -- I am just pointing out that if you are trying to sell the position that carrying a gun in a coffee shop is a good thing, using an example where it failed is probably not the best way to frame your argument.

Incorrect, the more good-guys with guns a bad guy faces, and from different directions/heterogenous parties/groups/, times, the better. All the cops were ambushed because they were together in a homogenous group and were probably LOST in their illusion of safety. Imagine if customers nearby saw or caught on the event ABOUT to happen but were unarmed and powerless and did NOTHING (lest the shooter take them out for calling the alarm). Imagine the employees, maybe they might have noticed and instead of ducking and hiding, pulled a gun to shoot bad guy. It really is simple. The bad guy was VERY confident that the ONLY armed people were the cops, so he believed his ambush would WORK. And it DID. Because he was RIGHT, only the cops were armed!!! The bad guy was a CIVILIAN dress so if HE could do that with ONE gun, IMAGINE (use that brain buddy) what ANOTHER CIVILIAN with CCW, even UOC could have done.) Don't place limits on the possibility of remedy since a GOOD-GUY civilian in this situation could be across the street, or walking behind the bad guy about to do his deeds.) YOU LOSE. That BAD guy would NOT have pulled off his crime if he saw 1, 2, or 8 people in the area UOC!!! WAKE UP!!! You reason and talk like a disinfo agent for the gun controllers!!!

When it comes to 2A and gun grabbers, there is a DISTINCT little effeminate voice that calls one to be WEAK, to be AFRAID, to SURRENDER, to ignore READINESS, to give in to STUPID COWARDLY LYING REASON. To heed this voice is NOT worthy of True Men but a trademark of Tyrants and their Liberal Lemmings that want to rape you of your will, your freedom, your choice to decide for yourself! Give them the pistol whip!!