Help me understand roster exemption

[audihenry]

Hi guys,

So I'm looking at some older guns (pre-1959) that are obviously not on the safe gun list and for sale outside of CA. Am I to understand that firearms older than 50 years can be shipped to a CA 01 FFL from another state to be transferred with the customary wait period, background check, etc.?

[DarkHorse]

Correct, C&R is a roster exemption, provided the gun is not an AW.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=81127

[audihenry]

Correct, C&R is a roster exemption, provided the gun is not an AW.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=81127

Thanks. Definitely not an AW. Does the item in question have to appear in the "official" ATF C&R list? Because one, it's outdated, and two, I can't seem to find what I want there, even though it is more than 50 years old.

[DarkHorse]

Here's a couple threads in the C&R forum.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=258059

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=256751

[DedEye]

You can also read about it on the Wiki.

[audihenry]

Thanks guys but none of those links answered my question vis-a-vis whether automatically at 50 years old a gun is roster exempt or if it has to be on the official ATF list of qualified guns?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Thanks guys but none of those links answered my question vis-a-vis whether automatically at 50 years old a gun is roster exempt or if it has to be on the official ATF list of qualified guns?

Yes, once a firearm turns 50 years old it qualifies as C&R. The C&R list that BATFE maintains is for stuff that becomes C&R by determination and not by age. Enough people were confused about this that BATFE finally added a notation on their C&R list page...

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/

Firearms Curios or Relics List

Firearms automatically attain curio or relic (C&R) status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list...

[bwiese]

From 27 CFR 478.11




Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:


(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;


(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and


(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

[audihenry]

Yes, once a firearm turns 50 years old it qualifies as C&R. The C&R list that BATFE maintains is for stuff that becomes C&R by determination and not by age. Enough people were confused about this that BATFE finally added a notation on their C&R list page...

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/

Ah, thank you!

And is age determined by the production of the particular firearm (there may be cases where this is difficult to determine) or by the date of first production of a particular model?

[FNH5-7]

Valuable information. All this time I thought the magic date was 1898.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

And is age determined by the production of the particular firearm (there may be cases where this is difficult to determine) or by the date of first production of a particular model?

It is determined by the production date of the actual firearm, not the date when the model was introduced. So a Colt M1911 manufactured in 1959 is C&R, but one manufactured in 1969 is not.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Valuable information. All this time I thought the magic date was 1898.

Handguns manufactured in or before 1898 are also exempt from The Roster. But they don't even have to be transfered through an FFL, so their Roster exemption is kind of pointless.

[audihenry]

It is determined by the production date of the actual firearm, not the date when the model was introduced. So a Colt M1911 manufactured in 1959 is C&R, but one manufactured in 1969 is not.

You've been more than helpful, but I do have one nagging question: how can one determine the age of the particular weapon if there are no dates on it and the serial cannot be used to figure out a date? Is it, at that point, simply up to the seller to specify a date?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

You've been more than helpful, but I do have one nagging question: how can one determine the age of the particular weapon if there are no dates on it and the serial cannot be used to figure out a date? Is it, at that point, simply up to the seller to specify a date?

If there are no records for matching a serial number with a date, then you have to wait until the known date that that model of firearm stopped production. For example, if a certain firearm was produced from 1946 to 1966 and no records exist to match a serial number with a date, then you'd have to wait until the year 2017 before that model of firearm was considered C&R. Sometimes there are ways to narrow down the date of production based on known changes in the design or markings.

[audihenry]

If there are no records for matching a serial number with a date, then you have to wait until the known date that that model of firearm stopped production. For example, if a certain firearm was produced from 1946 to 1966 and no records exist to match a serial number with a date, then you'd have to wait until the year 2017 before that model of firearm was considered C&R. Sometimes there are ways to narrow down the date of production based on known changes in the design or markings.

So is this "evidence" presented to anyone? Many guns do have websites which show serial ranges and dates of prodcution, which would help to determine age. Does the DOJ/et rely on one's evidence (whatever form would it take) or do they assume that your transferring it must be legit, otherwise the burden is on you if it is found that it isn't legit?