Front Site Firearms Training

[AndrewMendez]

http://www.frontsight.com/

Has any one dealt with these guys before??

I am looking into the lifetime membership deal, they are out of Nevada. Should I look out for anything?

[FS00008]

I'm not interested in going to Front Sight but I would also like to know...

[rkt88edmo]

Did you try the google search?

If you decide to buy a membership, post up looking for an existing member, they may be able to help you get a better deal than what is being offered to non-members, feel free to PM me.

[AndrewMendez]

Did you try the google search?

If you decide to buy a membership, post up looking for an existing member, they may be able to help you get a better deal than what is being offered to non-members, feel free to PM me.

Thanks! You answered a post a year or so ago. The reason I am asking, is because I had heard they recently filed for bankruptcy, but dont see any proof of that!

[Dr Rockso]

Me and my cousin are planning to go sometime next year for the defensive handgun course. My plan is to pick up a couple of the 1st time course certificates off of ebay for ~$150 a pop so we can go check them out. I've heard absolutely nothing bad about the quality of their training. They have had problems in the past delivering on promises made to some of their most high-paying members, and they were in court-ordered receivership for a short period of time in the past year or so.

[rkt88edmo]

My plan is to pick up a couple of the 1st time course certificates off of ebay for ~$150 a pop

You can get them at that price or cheaper on CGN, no need to go to the bay.

[Jason762]

Depending on what you're looking to get out of your training, I think you can do better than Front Sight. I am wary of any school offering Rolex watches with a membership. I'm not looking for status symbols, I'm looking for training...

If you're looking for a class to learn pistol-handling, Front Sight is a good place.

If you're looking for practical gunfighting/self defense skills, there are better schools than Front Sight.

YMMV

[KylaGWolf]

I just went in September and can say it is well worth the trip. Had a blast learned a lot. I will say if you plan to go in the summer or early fall it does get HOT. So a week before up your water and salt intake. Even though I did that I wound up with heatstroke on the last day. Also for lodging I recommend The Saddle West Hotel. Decent rooms, breakfast every morning included in the price. Also mention your taking a class at Front Sight and get a discount on the room.

I took the four day defensive handgun class. Which takes 800 rounds for the class. My advice buy your ammo before hand even though it is a pain to transport. Also make sure to have a cooler with you for drinks even though they supply water and gatorade you may want to have something different with you. Also there is no place buy food so you can either pack your own meals or buy the box lunches for $12 they have a link on the front sight web page or if you stay at Saddle West for $6 a day. We packed our own lunches. I will say as much fun as I had in the class by the end of the fourth day I was glad it was over. The schedule went a little like this:

Day 1 get there 7am. Check in, they check to make sure your belt/holster is set up right, two check to make sure your ammo is ok, and give you name tapes for front and back. Go to briefing/welcome speech then go to range, lunch with lecture and then back to range and go home about 6ish.

Day 2 Arrive by 8 am. Go straight to range, shoot, come in for lunch then lecture then back to range. Leave about 5:30-6:00 ish.

Day 3 (long day) arrive by 8 shoot till lunch and lecture, go to door simulator and then shoot house, back to range, dinner lecture for night shoot, go to night shoot and leave about 8-10 (depends on what time it gets dark) in Sept its about 9ish when we were done.

Day 4 Arrive at 8 go to range shoot (includes a shoot off on each range), lunch, test out, get certificates done around 5:30.

[KylaGWolf]

Depending on what you're looking to get out of your training, I think you can do better than Front Sight. I am wary of any school offering Rolex watches with a membership. I'm not looking for status symbols, I'm looking for training...

If you're looking for a class to learn pistol-handling, Front Sight is a good place.

If you're looking for practical gunfighting/self defense skills, there are better schools than Front Sight.

YMMV

I was never offered a Rolex for membership.

[KylaGWolf]

Me and my cousin are planning to go sometime next year for the defensive handgun course. My plan is to pick up a couple of the 1st time course certificates off of ebay for ~$150 a pop so we can go check them out. I've heard absolutely nothing bad about the quality of their training. They have had problems in the past delivering on promises made to some of their most high-paying members, and they were in court-ordered receivership for a short period of time in the past year or so.

Not so much problems unless you count the fact it is taking longer to build because they are doing it as the money comes along and some people got impatient. And then wanted their money back AND membership for free. But that is a whole different story. The receivership issue sort of sprung from the other issue and was found to be a non issue and was reversed since Front Sight had never been served in the first place. The only other issue I know of is from the death that happened on their rope repel course that is being handled by the insurance company and so that too is a non-issue. From our trip in September they say they will start building the housing and such in the next year or so. They pretty much finished building the classroom building. Hopefully the next build will be permanent restroom building. The classes are good ones. Friend of ours works in Fed LEO and found that when he took his first class he learned a lot from them and continues to learn something different every time he goes. Which he has been a member now for several years.

As for the certificates I have seen them from $150 to $300 a piece. Also depending on what time of the year you plan to go you may have to book the class further in advanced to secure a placement. Also the hotel rooms there can be hard to get at times if it is a busy time for Front Sight. I posted in another post in this thread about where I think is a good place to stay. I had also posted a thread of my experience at Front Sight right after I took the class. If you can find it have a good read.

[Jason762]

I was never offered a Rolex for membership.

http://www.frontsight.com/diamond-membership.asp

Rapid Response Bonus #7: A Rolex Front Sight Watch. Yes, It's a real Rolex! () This limited edition, special Rolex watch is created with a custom Front Sight face made especially for you-- A Front Sight Diamond Lifetime Member. Everyone recognizes a Rolex watch for its prestige, quality, and beauty. Now you will be recognized for your Front Sight Diamond Lifetime Membership as well when people ask you, "Where can I get one of those Rolex watches?" And you respond with, "You can't. This was a personal gift given to me by Front Sight's Founder, Dr. Ignatius Piazza when I became a Front Sight Diamond Lifetime Member!"

Just this little blurb here reminds me of those pheromone scents/penile enhancement ads in the back of gun/hunting mags.

[powaybob]

I attended a 5 day course in October 2009. I went on the $1199 package that includes four day handgun, 1 day CCW, and includes a Springfield Armory XD in your choice of calibers (I picked .45 ACP). There were a total of 468 students that showed up that Friday. I would say the group was overwhelmingly white, with a only one back person and several Hispanics in the entire 468 person population. I think most of the dozen pistol ranges were used. My class consisted of 44 people, including three women, assigned to a range with 20 stations. Two additional stations were jury rigged to accommodate two relays. There were three instructors, a ratio of 1 instructor to 15 students. All of the students in my group had semi auto pistols, probably 25% 1911 types and the remaining 75% ran the gamut with a lot of Glocks. I would guess a fairly even distribution of calibers among 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

There is a shade structure with chairs for everyone. Behind the chairs are tables holding water containers and powdered Gatorade. The instructors do a good job of encouraging hydration throughout the day. Several Porta-potties are located at each side to the rear of the range. They are clean and well kept, at least for porta-potties.

The instructors are uniformed in some sort of storm trooper costume: black baseball hat, gray shirt, black cargo boots bloused into high top combat boots. I thought it was a little silly for a desert environment. Personalities ran from flippant to imperious.

The class is divided into two relays, and organized so there is a shooting line and a coaching line, which exchange roles when the first shooters complete the drill. That is a good idea, you reinforce what you ware being told by ensuring your "student" is doing what was taught, and having to verbalize the instructions given. This is need because there is little direct instructor to individual learning. As you can imagine, for three people it is pretty much a full time job keeping 44 people with guns safe.

For me, with little to none formal training, the amount of information we were flooded with was daunting. However, early lessons are continuously reinforced as you progress.

The days are long. To check in the first day, if you are in the pistol program, you should get there from 0630 to 0730 to register, do equipment check, pick up equipment, and get to the classroom for the initial lectures. This was handled very well by the staff I thought. The next days you can show up at 0730 for "remedial" practice of skills. Formal instruction starts at 0800. The days last until around 1800. The night shoot keeps you there until 2100 or so. On the fourth day you are done by about 1700. The CCW day completes about 1400. My one complaint is that there is a $50 shipping charge if you are in the pistol program. I chose not to use the program gun since I was already practiced with my Ruger P-345 and Springfield Armory GI 1911, and they did not ask me for the fee the first day. I was home 10 days and received a letter asking me for the fee, causing further delay.

Shooting is done from 3, 5, 7, and 10 yards (or meters, depending on who is in charge of the line at the time). The initial training focuses on presentation to target from the holster, putting two shots in thoracic target area, then a single shot to a target area in the head. You are also taught to move and scan after the initial two shots, looking for results of the shots and other potential threats. The next steps are reloading drills, including a tactical reload which is simply to put a full magazine from your belt into the pistol while retaining the partially used one in your pocket. The emergency reload is when you have fired your last shot, and must insert another magazine from your belt.

Because of shooting line logistics, I would say three magazines are the minimum, and five or six are desirable. It saves thumbing rounds into magazines at the line. A magazine loader is handy to have while sitting down listening to the instructors. The web site recommends 800 rounds for the four day course. I shot less than 700 total including the fifth day, probably because of the class size. A lot of people who fly into Las Vegas ship ammunition to gun stores in Pahrump and are then faced with a surplus when flying back, so you can pick up their extras at reasonable prices. The Front Sight Pro Shop was charging $43 for 50 rounds of .45ACP, so I would certainly suggest a supply from elsewhere. Some sort of range bag or box to carry ammo, ear protection. magazines, and other items is extremely desirable. A small cooler to keep your lunch (if you bring it) is also needed.

A typical cycle includes a lecture and demonstration of the new skill to be learned, then "dry" (non-shooting)practice at a line just in front of the shade structure, then move to the firing line for another round of dry practice, firing drills by the first relay, then firing by the second relay, and a return to the shade structure for a break and re hydration. Then another cycle with another skill.

The first two days involve a lot of instruction and dry practice while the second two days have more shooting drills. There are also mandatory, and quite informative lectures about the legal aspects of shooting in self defense, and what to expect should you be involved in such a situation. The second two days emphasize speed with turning targets, and there is more shooting. Shooting up to this time has been done at paper targets in frames. Some variations are introduced in the second two days, including a "clearing the rooms drill" with targets depicting bad guys, good guys, and hostage situations; another shooting at steel plates in competition with another shooter, and a night shoot with flashlights. The "clearing the room" exercise is much more realistic and stressful than my description would imply. The winner of the steel plate shoot gets a special t-shirt.

During the third and fourth day among the skills taught are clearing malfunctions of three types: fail to feed; a "stovepipe" jam; and a jam in which there is a round in the chamber and another trying to feed. The first (called Type 1) is treated by tapping the magazine into place, racking the slide at the same time as flipping it towards the ejector side to clear anything that might be stuck, and returning the weapon to the firing position with the sight on target. It took longer to type than it takes to accomplish. The second malfunction (called a Type 2) is treated similarly to type 1 except with a dead trigger you must flip the pistol up to look at the ejector, then tap, rack and flip. The third type (called a Type 3) is more complex. On the dead trigger, you flip the muzzle up to see the type of jam, then check for a spare magazine, then lock the slide back, eject the magazine, rack the slide three times, insert the new magazine, and rack the slide once again to chamber a round and get back on target. The goal is to accomplish each in 1.5 seconds.

The final test involves timed shooting from each of the practiced distances. a miss still in the torso outline is a 3 point deduction, and outside the outline is a 5 point deduction. As I recall there are 125 points available for that part of the test. The second part of the test is timed reload and malfunction correction. Each must be completed with proper procedure in 1.5 seconds, and each action is performed twice. each trial is worth 3 points, and you can be failed for either procedural fault or fail to complete it in the time.

Everyone gets a "certificate of achievement". If you get 70 percent of the points available you get a "graduate" sticker affixed to the paper; 90% gets you a "distinguished graduate" sticker. Few shooters, if any, in my neophyte class could come close to a graduate sticker, so a return visit is needed to accomplish this. Thus I call it a marketing based curriculum.

The positives were a well organized experience, a time-proven curriculum, and fine shooting facilities. For those that choose it, the pistol and gear are top-quality dependable gear. You will definitely learn something and improve your skill level (unless you are already highly trained).The negatives are marketing Front Sight memberships, dearth of individual instruction, the attitudes of some of the instructors, and the difficulty to achieve graduate status in a single four-day course.

The weather was quite variable in late October. The first couple of days were warm (90s) and calm and then a front came through, bring cooler days and brisk winds in the 25 knot range. The final day was quite chilly in the morning. There is no pavement, gravel parking lots and gravel on the ranges, so it is quite dusty when the wind blows.

I drove from Poway, near San Diego, to Pahrump in about four hours. I stayed at the Pahrump Best Western, which was comfortable with reasonable rates. Dining opportunities are fast food, casino buffets, or Mexican or Italian restaurants. Since the room had a small refrigerator and microwave I chose to get frozen dinners and eat in the room. With the length of the days, this turned out to be a good choice for me. I also made my own lunches, though the Best Western will prepare a box lunch or you can order one from a Las Vegas deli that delivers them to Front Sight.

I will be returning some time next year, but with a better idea of what to expect and I hope I will have practiced the skills enough to achieve the "graduate" level.

[saber]

I have a membership, 2 actually.

I got one of their memberships that lets you take their basic classes for free. I then got a second membership which allows you to take all of their classes and am looking to give away my first membership.

I have now been twice and will be going back next year in January. I like the training and have learned a lot so far. I've taken their basic Rifle Class now and will take their pistol and shotgun next year.

So far, I've been very happy with their classes. What will be interesting for me is how some of their more advanced classes compare to their basic ones. I anticipate that I will have taken all of their basic classes by next year and will be looking to take their more advanced ones.

IMHO, if you can get a cheap certificate, go ahead and go and try it out.

Might there be better schools out, absolutely. Might there be better teachers, absolutely. Can you find another school you can go to for a $100 for a weekend, probably not.

[mooster]

I attended a 5 day course in October 2009..

Were you there the weekend of the 9th? Weather conditions sound the same as when I was there for my course.

I was quite pleased with the course and learned a lot. Our class had everyone from young professionals to retired folks and their wives. Everyone in the class and the instructors were very friendly.

I did like the buddy/coach system that is used as you learn as you spot for your partner. Another benefit was that the guys I partnered with would watch my back as some of the other students were very dangerous at first (muzzling other people on the line, problems holstering)

Some observations:
I liked the Saddlewest hotel deal for $49/$69 per night with chow. A sack lunch was only $7 and very filling. Every morning I would fill a bag of ice and stick it on top of my lunch in the car. Kept the food cool till lunch or dinner on the night-shoot day.

Some attendees hated the hotel while others like me said it was OK.

In my class, we had 2 guys get distinguished grad. I recall only 4-5 of us getting the graduate sticker

I had a lightweight, moisture wicking shirt as my concealment garment. This bit me the day of the test. In one of the scored sections the wind really kicked up and blew the shirt back into place - so I didn't have time to present and fire. That was 10 pts blown right there.

Ammo is was expensive in the pro shop. I thought I could stop by the Bass Pro in Henderson and pick up ammo in advance, but they are having shortage problems as well. Fortunately I did bring about 500rds of 9mm in my luggage.

Get a flashlight holder that points the bulb DOWN. People were having light NDs when putting their flashlights away and screwing up nightvision.

If you stay for the CCW course, STAY for the whole day. Don't try to rush and head to the Pahrump to get your CCW paperwork done the same day. The afternoon weapons session is great and worth the extra time. You can do the sheriff's thing the day after.

[tacticalcity]

I've been once several years ago and really enjoyed it, and I am going back this January (taking my 26 year old cousin with me as his Christmas present). The marketing stuff gets a little bit thick, but the training was excellent. They don't mix them. They have their marketing in the morning and at lunch before the legal lectures. On the range, it is all about instruction. I had great instructors that paid a LOT of attention to me. When I showed up I was terrible with a handgun. When I left I was a bad a__. Now that my skills are once again rusty as hell, I am hoping to leave a bad a__ after taking the course a second time. I missed graduate by just a couple of points. I blame it on the heat. I went in the summer, and by day four I was really worn out. It was hot as hell. I intentionally planned this trip in the winter. I can do the cold much better than I can do the heat.

I really did have a great time the first time I went. As a result I have pitched these guys to anyone who would listen. I am really hoping to have a repeat of that experience only better.