Armed teachers, your thoughts?

[HCz]

You're saying that teachers/staff should not be allowed to CC. So if state wide CC is accepted, should teachers/staff be barred from carrying on school grounds?

Maybe it's late at night, but I never said CC should be banned. I am against arming teachers without giving it a good tactical/strategic planning. Just because you give them legal options to carry a gun doesn't mean that it will solve the problem. You want to minimize Mr. Murphy's presence, and think of safeguards to ensure that. THAT is what I'm advocating here.

And I believe CC issued in CA is good statewide already.

I'm not mired up in a fantasy. If you think the cops are here to protect you, then you're wrong. Most cops go into LE with the intention of helping others. What usually happens is they become revenue generators and report takers. Sure, some of them get the chance to be a hero and really make a difference by saving a life. Does it happen to all cops? No

The courts have ruled that cops are not responsible for your protection. So, if they aren't responsible, why would you entrust your kids life to their timely response?

Yes, I'm very well aware of that court case. That's why in my post I said "(to certain limit)" The court case doesn't exclude them from reponsibility, but it excludes them from responding to every single thing. They are still responsible, and they usually get the job done.

Teachers, as I've already said, have a genuine interest in the kids. They've spent years of schooling and quite a bit of their own money to pursue their passion for teaching. They bond with the kids every day. If I was to trust my kids with someone, it's usually a teacher. So why not give this person who wants to keep the kids safe, and is already at the school the means to do their job correctly, which is protecting and teaching the kids?

Theoretically that's going to work. Theoretically. In reality, as I said before, there are problems that arise, including FF and other problems.

It's interesting that you put your faith in to teachers, but according to many people they don't think the same way. Next time someone complains about teachers and how they are overpaid you will see that teachers are the rejects that couldn't hack in to the real world and so forth. While there are many who do have interst in education, that doesn't mean that teachers also have to play security.

[locosway]

I don't think that teachers are the best thing ever, and in fact my kids are home schooled now. But they do have an interest in the kids and do bond with them.

Training would be mandatory for school officials who carry concealed as there is a lot of different aspects within a school. Much like an air marshal situation. I think that's the right way to go instead of waiting for the cops to get their acts together with school shootings.

[randy]

Not every teacher needs to be armed some are too stupid. Arm the janitors and the rest of the staff that can pass the class and tests.

[Jamez]

I wouldn't mind, but I would like to see specific training curriculum and rules of force before I gave a simple yes or no.

[tenpercentfirearms]

With the school shootings being a popular avenue in America these past few years it seems to me that an armed presence in all schools would either deter a violent and hostile take over, or would allow for a quick and fast shutdown of the persons involved in such activities.

School shootings are not popular. School shootings and violence is highly sensationalized in the media, but violence at school actually declined over the last 30 years or so. You are statistically very safe at school.

I heard of one school in TX that is the only school in the nation to allow select trained teachers to carry concealed. The reason being is the police department is 15 minutes away.

Given the time frame of school shootings, it seems that 30-45 minutes passes before anyone attempts to enter the school and ascertain the situation.

More BS. At Columbine 10 years ago some people waited. Actually the first responded made contact with the shooters and exchanged fire. Then they waited for SWAT. Police are now trained to enter the school immediately and go looking for the threat.

I was talking with my aunt while we were waiting for her kids to get out of school. She mentioned that the campus was fairly open and that scared her. She said anyone could walk onto the campus and start shooting the kids. So I asked her what she thought would be the best solution? She said she didn't know.

Well, I offered her mine. Arm select teachers who are proficient in the use of firearms. This gives the school a chance to protect the kids in the event of a disaster or a crazed gunman. She agreed...

I think this is something that could pass in CA. Given the proper information and the right statements to the public this could be successfully passed even with a lot of liberals in major cities.

CA will never pass armed teachers. Ever. Pay attention to where you live. We have the most restrictive gun laws in the nation and new ones come through the legislature every year.

The only thing you could do is take districts like mine and have them revoke their cause for firing me if I legally carry to school. That is right, I can already legally carry on a school campus with my CCW. I just get fired by my district for carrying at my district. Everywhere else I can already carry.

The one thing I find interesting in this thread is the idea that the risk of a teacher getting shot in a friendly fire incident is the reason teachers shouldn't carry. I guess a couple 30 student classrooms seriously wounded and dead is a better trade off than a mistakenly shot teacher? What kind of logic is that?

In the unlikely event I am on a campus and armed during a school shooting, I will be on my phone to the local authorities informing them I am on campus, armed, and actively seeking the shooter and here is my person description. Tell the responding units to give me about two seconds to drop my weapon before they light me up. Or maybe I will just hole up in a classroom and watch out the window. If a target should appear, I will shoot from cover through the window.

In the end, it just might be your time to go. Everyone should be prepared that you might not make it out of a shooting. That doesn't mean I live in fear of it and remain defenseless because I am scared of what might happen if I am not armed. Well, except at school, but that is why I have fire extinguishers and other heavy objects around just in case.

[ponderosa]

The friendly fire issue could be applied to any scenario, not just a school. What about a mall? What about a parking lot? Same possibilities, but as 10% said "I guess a couple 30 student classrooms seriously wounded and dead is a better trade off than a mistakenly shot teacher? What kind of logic is that?" I totally agree with.

I think plain old CCW would be the best answer, like UT, but in CA???? doesn't seem possible. <sigh>

[HowardW56]

With the school shootings being a popular avenue in America these past few years it seems to me that an armed presence in all schools would either deter a violent and hostile take over, or would allow for a quick and fast shutdown of the persons involved in such activities.

I heard of one school in TX that is the only school in the nation to allow select trained teachers to carry concealed. The reason being is the police department is 15 minutes away.

Given the time frame of school shootings, it seems that 30-45 minutes passes before anyone attempts to enter the school and ascertain the situation.

I was talking with my aunt while we were waiting for her kids to get out of school. She mentioned that the campus was fairly open and that scared her. She said anyone could walk onto the campus and start shooting the kids. So I asked her what she thought would be the best solution? She said she didn't know.

Well, I offered her mine. Arm select teachers who are proficient in the use of firearms. This gives the school a chance to protect the kids in the event of a disaster or a crazed gunman. She agreed...

I think this is something that could pass in CA. Given the proper information and the right statements to the public this could be successfully passed even with a lot of liberals in major cities.

They do this in Israel, without any incidence of friendly fire or misuse...

[POLICESTATE]

I say we just arm everybody. An armed society is a polite society.

[JDoe]

Armed teachers, your thoughts?

Of course teachers should be able to carry in school/classrooms.

Carrying should be a personal choice.

Taking action against an active shooter should be a personal choice made by the teacher carrying. We are talking about teachers here not law enforcement that might have more training and different motivations for confronting potentially lethal forces.

When seconds count the police are minutes away from arriving and probably more minutes away from confronting an active shooter. On the best of days.

Not all police are going to immediately enter an active shooter situation. Yeah, yeah I know that some will but it isn't guaranteed. So how many people can die before the police neutralize the threat?

Allow me to speculate wildly about a possible best case reasonable time for the Police to neutralize an active shooter... (based on data from post 27 below and also found at http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publication...aspx?ID=245861 )

00:00 Active shooter starts shooting and killing students and teachers.
00:10 First 911 call is made.
00:50 First contact by police dispatcher to LEO.
01:00 LEO gets it. Active shooter at XYZ school and starts to "fly" towards school.
06:00 First LEO arrives on scene and commences full on aggressive high speed low drag solo entry without regard for his/her own well being.
06:30 First LEO confronts active shooter who is continuing to shoot students cornered in a classroom. First LEO unloads into the active shooter and luckily on the first shot the active shooter drops like a rag doll from a lucky head shot.

Assume students are cornered and one student shot every fifteen seconds. That works out to 26 students or teachers killed or wounded.

Now allow me to reasonably speculate about a best case time for an armed and reasonably trained teacher to neutralize an active shooter...

00:00 Active shooter displays his weapon.
00:02 Carrying Teacher sees this.
00:03 Active shooter starts shooting students and teachers.
00:04 Carrying Teacher reverts to training and draws weapon simultaneously looking for a clear shot and safe backstop.
00:10 Carrying Teacher commences aggressive defensive shooting and unloads his/her carry weapon into the Active Shooter.
00:12 Active Shooter, mortally wounded but not realizing he has been hit continues to shoot students and teachers.
00:20 Active Shooter stops shooting at students and teachers after realizing he isn't feeling quite right and starting to lose his vision.
00:21 Active Shooter who is now only able to hear sounds but can't see slowly crumbles to the ground as he loses physical strength and slips quickly towards unconsciousness and imminent death.

Assume students are cornered and one student shot every fifteen seconds. In this case one or two students or teachers are killed or wounded.

Looks like allowing trained teachers to concealed carry might be a good idea.

I think this is something that could pass in CA. Given the proper information and the right statements to the public this could be successfully passed even with a lot of liberals in major cities.

But those effing antis believe that all guns are evil and if you carry a gun it is going to be used against you before being used to kill kittens.

[CSDGuy]

As others have stated before, in Israel, they have teachers that are armed. School shootings have dropped to essentially zero. Same with shootings in large crowds. Too many people are armed and will take action against the shooter... They used to hope for probably 30+ dead and injured, and they were getting very few "numbers" out of it... so they switched to bombs...

[SCMA-1]

I'm all for it. Arm teachers, pilots, students, every law abiding American citizen. Nothing new here, merely a prerequisite to a free and secure society. Dismantle the gun-free "victim enablement" zones and crime will shrivel.

[JDoe]

Patrol Response Challenge

the shooter having shot a person every 15 seconds. The most impressive response time to an active shooter confirmed by a police agency to date is 5-6 minutes by Omaha (Nebraska) police officers. In the past few years, the most rapid and effective interventions in active shootings have been performed by officers who were already at or near the scene, whether on or off duty. This suggests that training tactics for countering active shooters should focus on school resource officers, patrol officers, and the requirement that off-duty officers carry their weapons with them in their off-duty activities. Although SWAT teams must be trained to respond quickly and appropriately to active-shooter situations, making a rapid response time a high priority means that individual patrol officers must be trained to act as a two-person team or singly in responding to active-shooter scenarios. Tactical and equipment issues that must be addressed are the accessibility of needed weaponry and breaching equipment in a patrol car, officer knowledge of the layout of schools in his/her jurisdiction, and ways to reduce response times for 911 calls received by dispatchers. The latter must be tested via simulations. Other issues that should be addressed are the training of school administrators, teachers, and school resource officers regarding immediate protective actions that can protect potential targets of an active shooter until officers arrive at the scene.

[Capt. Speirs]

The better alternative would be to just allow CCW permits for everyone. Criminals will think twice about committing a crime if random strangers are armed.

+ 1

[pullnshoot25]

When Columbine happened, I asked why the teachers weren't armed. Everyone gasped at the idea.

I never did like my classmates all that much...

[berto]

Our "think of the children" representatives and electorate will never allow more guns to be placed near the precious children. The teacher unions will never push for armed teachers because theachers are at school to educate not to kill. Add the typical union leftward lean and armed teachers are a no go.