Armed teachers, your thoughts?

[locosway]

With the school shootings being a popular avenue in America these past few years it seems to me that an armed presence in all schools would either deter a violent and hostile take over, or would allow for a quick and fast shutdown of the persons involved in such activities.

I heard of one school in TX that is the only school in the nation to allow select trained teachers to carry concealed. The reason being is the police department is 15 minutes away.

Given the time frame of school shootings, it seems that 30-45 minutes passes before anyone attempts to enter the school and ascertain the situation.

I was talking with my aunt while we were waiting for her kids to get out of school. She mentioned that the campus was fairly open and that scared her. She said anyone could walk onto the campus and start shooting the kids. So I asked her what she thought would be the best solution? She said she didn't know.

Well, I offered her mine. Arm select teachers who are proficient in the use of firearms. This gives the school a chance to protect the kids in the event of a disaster or a crazed gunman. She agreed...

I think this is something that could pass in CA. Given the proper information and the right statements to the public this could be successfully passed even with a lot of liberals in major cities.

[HCz]

Nope. Even if you make teachers get POST 1(?) credential this idea has bad components to it.

Is there any chance of friendly fire from police arriving?

Does every first responders know who is the good guy and who the bad guy is?

And on top of that the teachers are responsible for their students only. They can't just lock the classroom and go out hunting for active shooters.

[locosway]

I don't think FF is an issue.

Teachers are responsible for the kids. Part of that is protecting them from harm as a parent would do. You entrust the school to watch over your children just as you would. Having some teachers armed would be a good balance. The armed teachers could head towards the threat while the kids they normally school could be moved into another class.

What's the better alternative? Lock the doors and wait 45 minutes for the cops? How'd that work out for the kids in Columbine or VT?

[HCz]

I don't think FF is an issue.

I'm sorry but reality is not fantasy. You cannot identify who the shooter is and who the good guy is when they are both wearing plain clothes. There might be other things that might give a clue, but one of the things that happen is that first responders may get incorrect info. Someone else who is calling in could think that the teacher is the shooter. Friendly Fire is an issue.

Teachers are responsible for the kids. Part of that is protecting them from harm as a parent would do. You entrust the school to watch over your children just as you would. Having some teachers armed would be a good balance. The armed teachers could head towards the threat while the kids they normally school could be moved into another class.

Again, reality is not fantasy. It will give some people boners thinking about armed citizens taking down bad guys, but reality is different. If Mr. Smith heads to the threat, and kids move to another classroom, is there a gurantee that the active shooter is alone? could it be that there are more than one? How long would it take to move one classroom of people(let's say 20) to another location? Can it be that while Mr. Smith is watching down the hallway, the active shooter will appear from the other end and shoot at Mr. Smith?

What's the better alternative? Lock the doors and wait 45 minutes for the cops? How'd that work out for the kids in Columbine or VT?

The better alternative is to make sure there can be faster reponse without risk of FF and confusion. The general idea is that if the teachers are definitely aware that gun sounds are coming from other side of school, they may move out of campus. If they are not able to, then it's better to bunker in. Active shooters tend to bypass doors that seem to be fortified/not opening. Interestingly, the professor who was killed while he tried to lock the door managed to save other's lives because his body was blocking the door way.

[locosway]

So, we should have an armed public and unarmed teachers? How is a school any different from a grocery store?

There will never be a faster response. LEA's have had years to come up with solutions and training material to give them proper and timely responses. Has any of it worked? No..

Most shootings are quick, much quicker than it takes the average patrol officer to arrive at a scene much less determine wtf is going on. Schools are large and never built in the same manner. Teachers and staff there have the best knowledge of the grounds. If there's a lockdown, and the only other person walking around 30 seconds later has a gun, it's safe to assume they shouldn't be there. Ordering the person to identify themselves first and then drop the weapon second is a good way to identify who is who.

Sure, fantasy isn't reality, but what I'm talking about is real, not fantasy.

[ck867]

The better alternative would be to just allow CCW permits for everyone. Criminals will think twice about committing a crime if random strangers are armed.

[locosway]

The better alternative would be to just allow CCW permits for everyone. Criminals will think twice about committing a crime if random strangers are armed.

That's no different than allowing teachers with training to CC.

[Napalm Bulldog]

CCW permits would be cheaper and less of a strain on taxpayers.

[HCz]

So, we should have an armed public and unarmed teachers? How is a school any different from a grocery store?

A grovery store does not have hierarchy of a school. In school there are teachers and there are students. Above the teachers are admins. There is some sort of command structure here.

There will never be a faster response. LEA's have had years to come up with solutions and training material to give them proper and timely responses. Has any of it worked? No..

I don't know if you are unawre of pradigm shift in active shooter response, but thesedays, the first thing that most LEOs do when it is an active shooter situation, is to get at least 1 more and go in ASAP.

Most shootings are quick, much quicker than it takes the average patrol officer to arrive at a scene much less determine wtf is going on.

So? Entering a hasty gun battle is no more smarter and effective.

Schools are large and never built in the same manner. Teachers and staff there have the best knowledge of the grounds.

You will be surprised how complex college campuses can be, and some of highschools I've seen are not really small either. Especially, in large colleges, faculties don't know every detail.

If there's a lockdown, and the only other person walking around 30 seconds later has a gun, it's safe to assume they shouldn't be there. Ordering the person to identify themselves first and then drop the weapon second is a good way to identify who is who.

And that person could be Mr. Smith, the armed teacher. Believe it or not, police may not get the chance to order the person. It is not really advantageous for them to give order. What if Mr. Smith was shot by as he was putting his gun down?

Sure, fantasy isn't reality, but what I'm talking about is real, not fantasy.

No you are not in reality. Here's another reality. How many teachers spend over $1000 for pistol training? How many of them participated in Active Shooter training scenarios?

[locosway]

CCW permits would be cheaper and less of a strain on taxpayers.

CCW permits are the same thing. They involve training and someone to carry concealed. So how is it any different from what I've described?

Allowing staff at schools to CC is the only solution I see to ensuring the students don't get trapped and killed. We all know that the police are not responsible for protecting us. So why wait for a better response from them? So they can take the report faster?

Arm the teachers/staff so they can be the first responders to an incident.

[CCWUSA]

It works in Israel and Utah...and probably some other States as well. The only people that are likely to effectively stop an immediate threat (Active Shooter) at a school, are 1) Armed Police Officers assigned to the school, 2) An Armed Security Officer assigned to that school, or 3) an Armed Teacher, Principal, Janitor, Student, or Visitor. Yes this has all happened before, and it will probably happen again. If teachers are willing to be armed, like Pilots, they should receive suitable training and be willing and capable of protecting our kids. The Police simply may not have the time to respond to the scene before massive loss of life. Go to www.stonecobratactical.com and click on the menu for School Shootings...you may be surprised at how often these shootings have occurred. You can also find more information about how the police are dealing with school shootings at:

https://www.policeone.com/pc_print.asp?vid=1695125

My 2 cents...

[locosway]

A grovery store does not have hierarchy of a school. In school there are teachers and there are students. Above the teachers are admins. There is some sort of command structure here.

I don't know if you are unawre of pradigm shift in active shooter response, but thesedays, the first thing that most LEOs do when it is an active shooter situation, is to get at least 1 more and go in ASAP.


So? Entering a hasty gun battle is no more smarter and effective.


You will be surprised how complex college campuses can be, and some of highschools I've seen are not really small either. Especially, in large colleges, faculties don't know every detail.

And that person could be Mr. Smith, the armed teacher. Believe it or not, police may not get the chance to order the person. It is not really advantageous for them to give order. What if Mr. Smith was shot by as he was putting his gun down?


No you are not in reality. Here's another reality. How many teachers spend over $1000 for pistol training? How many of them participated in Active Shooter training scenarios?

So, if we get LOC/CC in CA... Are you advocating that guns still be banned from schools?

What you say doesn't make any sense. Why would you want to entrust the police with the worst record for protecting kids in schools over a teacher who bonds with the kids every day? Those teachers have a genuine interest in the kids, and DO know the school better than the cops.

[HCz]

So, if we get LOC/CC in CA... Are you advocating that guns still be banned from schools?

Maybe you need to re-read my posts, but no where did I say that LOC/CC in CA should be blocked. If a faculty has a CCW and carries on school, that is employment problem, not legal one.

What you say doesn't make any sense. Why would you want to entrust the police with the worst record for protecting kids in schools over a teacher who bonds with the kids every day? Those teachers have a genuine interest in the kids, and DO know the school better than the cops.

Maybe becuase you are mired up in your fantasy a little too much. Did you notice that the police are alraedy entrusted to protect(to certain limit) public? I don't know where you get your statistics, but teachers are no better than police when it comes to protecting kids. CCW USA posted a good link to all the school shootings.

[ck867]

I honestly wish I could conceal carry at my college more than anywhere else due to the fact that I have a fear of what happened at VT. With a school type shooting, there simply will never be enough time to react. The best solution to me is to increase the odds of armed civillian and if for some reason a shooting does occur, hopefully an armed student or teacher will be close by to hopefully prevent any further damages.

[locosway]

Maybe you need to re-read my posts, but no where did I say that LOC/CC in CA should be blocked. If a faculty has a CCW and carries on school, that is employment problem, not legal one.

You're saying that teachers/staff should not be allowed to CC. So if state wide CC is accepted, should teachers/staff be barred from carrying on school grounds?

Maybe becuase you are mired up in your fantasy a little too much. Did you notice that the police are alraedy entrusted to protect(to certain limit) public? I don't know where you get your statistics, but teachers are no better than police when it comes to protecting kids. CCW USA posted a good link to all the school shootings.

I'm not mired up in a fantasy. If you think the cops are here to protect you, then you're wrong. Most cops go into LE with the intention of helping others. What usually happens is they become revenue generators and report takers. Sure, some of them get the chance to be a hero and really make a difference by saving a life. Does it happen to all cops? No

The courts have ruled that cops are not responsible for your protection. So, if they aren't responsible, why would you entrust your kids life to their timely response?

Teachers, as I've already said, have a genuine interest in the kids. They've spent years of schooling and quite a bit of their own money to pursue their passion for teaching. They bond with the kids every day. If I was to trust my kids with someone, it's usually a teacher. So why not give this person who wants to keep the kids safe, and is already at the school the means to do their job correctly, which is protecting and teaching the kids?