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  • #16
    Librarian
    Admin and Poltergeist
    CGN Contributor - Lifetime
    • Oct 2005
    • 44660

    Going back to the original question, 'open carry' is NOT 'substantially concealed'.

    The Calcrim jury instructions reference
    Substantial Concealment.
    People v. Wharton (1992) 5 Cal.App.4th 72, 75 [6 Cal.Rptr.2d 673] [interpreting now-repealed Pen. Code, ? 12020(a)(4)];
    People v. Fuentes (1976) 64 Cal.App.3d 953, 955 [134 Cal.Rptr. 885] [same].
    Wharton says
    1] Defendant contends there is insufficient evidence of concealment because the tip of the knife was protruding from his pocket. We disagree. Only substantial concealment is required. (People v. Fuentes (1976) 64 Cal. App. 3d 953, 955 [134 Cal. Rptr. 885] [dirk with handle protruding from waistband found to be a concealed weapon].) "A defendant need not be totally successful in concealing a dirk to be guilty of violation of Penal Code section 12020, subdivision (a)." (People v. Fuentes, supra, 64 Cal.App.3d at p. 955.)

    Here, the jury was permitted to examine the knife, which our perusal discloses is approximately seven and three-eighths inches long. The jury was apprised that only one and one-half to two inches of the blade were protruding from defendant's pocket. These facts support a finding of substantial concealment. [5 Cal. App. 4th 76]
    Wharton references Fuentes,
    Fuentes contends that there was no evidence to show that the dirk was concealed and argues that "[t]here is not even a suggestion in the record that the dirk was ever anywhere but in plain sight." The dirk obviously was not in plain sight. This is not a situation where the weapon was carried openly in a sheath or attached to a belt. fn. 1 The dirk was in Fuentes' waistband. [1] The mere fact that some portion of the handle may have been visible makes it no less a concealed weapon. A defendant need not be totally successful in concealing a dirk to be guilty of violation of Penal Code section 12020, subdivision (a). (See People v. Hale, 43 Cal. App. 3d 353, 356 [117 Cal. Rptr. 697]; People v. May, 33 Cal. App. 3d 888, 891 [109 Cal. Rptr. 396]; People v. Tarkington, 273 Cal. App. 2d 466, 469 [78 Cal. Rptr. 149].) [64 Cal. App. 3d 956]
    Though both of those refer to dirk or dagger, the Calcrim folks seem to believe that applies to concealable firearms, too.
    Last edited by Librarian; 09-10-2023, 12:21 PM.
    ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page

    Frozen in 2015, it is falling out of date and I can no longer edit the content. But much of it is still good!

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    • #17
      IVC
      I need a LIFE!!
      • Jul 2010
      • 17601

      Originally posted by Tripplet918
      I didnt know there were issues with printing. Do you have a link?

      Ive been carrying under T-shirts. I?d like to look into the details.
      It was more of a tongue in cheek comment about using the argument of the state against them. In reality, it would come to a case law and I'm not aware of any. So, it's all speculation about what interpretation of the words "open" or "concealed" would win in court.
      sigpicNRA Benefactor Member

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      • #18
        MudCamper
        Veteran Member
        • Mar 2007
        • 4595

        Also 25400, which makes it illegal to carry concealed, uses pretty plain language for what is not concealed:

        25400 (b) A firearm carried openly in a belt holster is not concealed within the meaning of this section.

        Comment

        • #19
          Coolguy101
          Senior Member
          • May 2011
          • 655

          Originally posted by 3rd_gear
          damn...
          Damn?

          Open carry, except during hunting, is pretty much pointless and unnecessary.

          Concealed carry, though, is useful, and preferred.

          Why would you prefer to open carry?

          Comment

          • #20
            IVC
            I need a LIFE!!
            • Jul 2010
            • 17601

            Originally posted by Coolguy101
            Open carry, except during hunting, is pretty much pointless and unnecessary.
            Legal open carry takes care of any potential issue with gun being partially exposed at any time during concealed carry. It also takes care of any publicly accessible private land issues, where a person carries on his own land. And don't forget that there are a lot of people hiking, camping, visiting remote areas, or just living in secluded open spaces where open carry is much more convenient.

            What you're probably thinking is open carry in urban centers just to make a political statement. Those have a role too, we have to make sure the other side understands we'll come to their turf if they keep poking us. And open carry doesn't hurt, we've seen it from all the states that allow it.

            So, what's the downside?
            sigpicNRA Benefactor Member

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            • #21
              Librarian
              Admin and Poltergeist
              CGN Contributor - Lifetime
              • Oct 2005
              • 44660

              Originally posted by MudCamper
              Also 25400, which makes it illegal to carry concealed, uses pretty plain language for what is not concealed:

              25400 (b) A firearm carried openly in a belt holster is not concealed within the meaning of this section.
              That was added to cover silly prosecutors charging such belt carry as illegal concealed, because the gun was concealed by the holster.

              But it is one clear statement on one way to not be concealed.
              ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page

              Frozen in 2015, it is falling out of date and I can no longer edit the content. But much of it is still good!

              Comment

              • #22
                acaligunner
                Calguns Addict
                • Oct 2008
                • 7767

                Originally posted by Coolguy101
                Damn?

                Open carry, except during hunting, is pretty much pointless and unnecessary.

                Concealed carry, though, is useful, and preferred.

                Why would you prefer to open carry?
                That?s not entirely true, as I opened Carried in AZ for 5+ years and it saved me twice during bad confrontations.

                Why did I open carry? Well because the state / city of Phoenix, Arizona allowed it.

                I even traveled multiple times through south central phoenix ( LOL I guess they also wanted that status ) and multiple other counties and no one disarmed me / or went for my pistol - which was a Glock 17 with 2 mags on my belt.

                I wasn?t the only person doing so also, and unless you?ve carried a loaded self defense weapon and had that experience ~ well it?s not as dumb as you would believe it to be.
                Vida Loca Homes

                Comment

                • #23
                  3rd_gear
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2006
                  • 586

                  Originally posted by Coolguy101
                  Damn?

                  Open carry, except during hunting, is pretty much pointless and unnecessary.

                  Concealed carry, though, is useful, and preferred.

                  Why would you prefer to open carry?
                  I live in Santa Clara county, where it's still virtually impossible to get a ccw. I was hoping to open carry with an IWB holster with only a small portion of the pistol visible.

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    Coolguy101
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2011
                    • 655

                    Originally posted by acaligunner
                    That?s not entirely true, as I opened Carried in AZ for 5+ years and it saved me twice during bad confrontations.

                    Why did I open carry? Well because the state / city of Phoenix, Arizona allowed it.

                    I even traveled multiple times through south central phoenix ( LOL I guess they also wanted that status ) and multiple other counties and no one disarmed me / or went for my pistol - which was a Glock 17 with 2 mags on my belt.

                    I wasn?t the only person doing so also, and unless you?ve carried a loaded self defense weapon and had that experience ~ well it?s not as dumb as you would believe it to be.
                    I've open carried while hunting and in my campsite. I haven't done it in the city. I found open carry while hunting and camping to be useful and practical.

                    I've been to Arizona multiple times in the past, and have seen open carry. I saw a guy with a .44 mag on his hip eating at Red Lobster, and another person with some sort of semi auto on their hip at Walmart.

                    I don't see the point, and I don't get into confrontations where I need a gun. Good decision making and situational awareness likely played a major part in that.

                    People open carry in public to make a statement, and I just don't happen to agree with them. I don't like cowboys, and I'm not talking about the ones what work with cattle.

                    Hopefully the Supreme Court will make it so we can all conceal carry in the near future.

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      acaligunner
                      Calguns Addict
                      • Oct 2008
                      • 7767

                      Originally posted by Coolguy101
                      I've open carried while hunting and in my campsite. I haven't done it in the city. I found open carry while hunting and camping to be useful and practical.

                      I've been to Arizona multiple times in the past, and have seen open carry. I saw a guy with a .44 mag on his hip eating at Red Lobster, and another person with some sort of semi auto on their hip at Walmart.

                      I don't see the point, and I don't get into confrontations where I need a gun. Good decision making and situational awareness likely played a major part in that.

                      People open carry in public to make a statement, and I just don't happen to agree with them. I don't like cowboys, and I'm not talking about the ones what work with cattle.

                      Hopefully the Supreme Court will make it so we can all conceal carry in the near future.
                      I believe Living in ARIZONA and visiting are way different experiences, I carried a gun - not to make a point and not to act like a cowboy.

                      I believe in the right to carry, and have practiced enough to be safe and know how to use my SD tools.

                      I do see a point - the right to self defense and in 2 examples I stopped an attack on myself and another attempt years later, all because I did have a means to stop a attack with a knife and later a gang - so you do not have to be ? looking for trouble ? to defend yourself ~ even if the area is safe.

                      Arizona did later change up on the rules, but for the years I open carried a loaded SD Weapon ~ I?m glad I did.
                      Vida Loca Homes

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                      • #26
                        IVC
                        I need a LIFE!!
                        • Jul 2010
                        • 17601

                        Originally posted by Coolguy101
                        People open carry in public to make a statement, and I just don't happen to agree with them. I don't like cowboys, and I'm not talking about the ones what work with cattle.
                        Feel free not to like or agree with anyone and feel free to do things your way. But also let others do what they want, it's not up to each one of us to tell others how they must behave. Nor do we have the authority.
                        sigpicNRA Benefactor Member

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                        • #27
                          deckhandmike
                          Calguns Addict
                          • Jan 2011
                          • 8325

                          Open carry is where it?s at. I think a lot of those that frown on it haven?t seen the practicality of it. I often open carry while hunting or outdoors and it substantially more comfortable. It allows me to add the stuff like a rds and light that make CC uncomfortable and prints. So much more comfortable while sitting and driving.

                          While I enjoy being subtle in certain settings such as a nice restaurant I generally wouldn?t care when out and about running errands. I stopped worrying about what other people think years ago. The only thing cowboy about about open carry is caring about more about your family than other people?s feelings.
                          Last edited by deckhandmike; 09-12-2023, 9:35 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Coolguy101
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2011
                            • 655

                            Originally posted by IVC
                            Feel free not to like or agree with anyone and feel free to do things your way. But also let others do what they want, it's not up to each one of us to tell others how they must behave. Nor do we have the authority.
                            Actually, we do have the authority to tell others how they must behave. That's why laws exist.

                            Comment

                            • #29
                              redbridge
                              Junior Member
                              • Mar 2023
                              • 47

                              Nice thread!

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                acaligunner
                                Calguns Addict
                                • Oct 2008
                                • 7767

                                Originally posted by Coolguy101
                                Actually, we do have the authority to tell others how they must behave. That's why laws exist.
                                Oh you mean unjust laws that restrict and take away ca citizens rights like the 2nd amendment ?

                                Govt is about controlling and giving itself power and does little for the people when you consider all aspects.

                                Your insight is a bit flawed, just like your opinion on open carrying.
                                Vida Loca Homes

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