Flat range vs scenario based training

[rodralig]

Hello CGNers!

Help a new guy out. I've been noticing several YouTube videos where guys like Garand Thumb and Brass Facts are running around in the desert in their kit, shooting around cars, reloading behind cover and other tactical stuff.

But then I see guys in the competition community don't do those kinds of things. I keep hearing from the tactical guys that what you do on the flat range isn't realistic and will set up bad habits. What do you guys think?! How do you guys train for self and homeland defense? Does anyone who's had gunfight experience weigh in here?

As others have already weighed in - if you are just starting out, SIMPLIFY. Get your fundamentals down on a flat range before even thinking of tactics and/or running and gunning.

One barometer if you will - can you draw and place two hits in an 8-inch circle at 7-yards in 2.1-secs or better? If not, work on your fundamentals - train/practice. Forget about the YouTube personalities (I usually *yawn* when I watch most YT on firearms) - go straight to a competent instructor, and get to work.


PS: Personally, I have been in tactical/defensive classes where you have guys wearing the tricked out tacticool gear/patches, etc. Some with awesome 2011 Staccato… And most are all talk about tactics/theory, etc. But when the instructor runs them through the crucible, it is like a #smacksMyHead moment. Mediocre, or even worst, shooting skills. Their tactical “problem solving” skills weren’t even top notch… Do not be like these guys.


_

[Mustard]

Garand Thumb was an air force pj, iirc. So he's been there done that

I'd sooner take a gun gamer with a bad attitude into a gunfight than damn near any of the people i've been on the line with while qualifying for ccw. Flat range may be a game, but it's movement, marksmanship, and high speed stress.

[SDDAVE56]

When were you there? That was Camp San Luis Obispo and Camp Cuesta (the physical training portions) while the weapons retention training was over at the SO facility. They had that obsidian black EOC that looked like it belonged in a sci-fi movie. I was there several times in the mid-late 80s and also at CSTI several times which was also on the grounds.








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That must have been in the early 90's. I went through it with my Sig P226, a short time after we transitioned from Revolvers. We stayed at the Embassy Suits.

[FeuerFrei]

You mean that batman belts, lifetime subscriptions to tactijolly days and the choreographed everyone walks away a hero sessions isn't true?

You mean the ball cap, polo shirt, full beard, shooting glasses, and pleather belt don't make you better? Those magazine pads that make them bounce like superballs in a ping pong match aren't mandatory like the sideways John Wick grip?

Do you realize how many heads are exploding right now and the guy getting fitted for his Danners just shat his pants??




.

You nailed it. It has turned into a cut/copy/paste culture of retail super heroism.

[jonnyt16]

As others have already weighed in - if you are just starting out, SIMPLIFY. Get your fundamentals down on a flat range before even thinking of tactics and/or running and gunning.

Yep. Fundamentals first especially when working from the holster.

Then, get yourself some IPSC targets and a shot timer and have fun!

The way I became a competent shooter (after learning the basics) is I repeatedly ran all kinds of drills as often as I could. Then got in to 3-Gun and 2-Gun. Lots of trigger time.

[waveslayer]

Train and practice all of it. You run scenarios so you know what to train for a d what you need to practice. It's all good training just depends on what happens when you need to actually get in a gun battle

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

[damon1272]

Learn the basics first. Then do force on force training. The scenarios are fluid and really open things up to a whole mother level with adrenaline pumping.

[SharedShots]

That must have been in the early 90's. I went through it with my Sig P226, a short time after we transitioned from Revolvers. We stayed at the Embassy Suits.

Mid 80s for me.

[NapalmCheese]

Learn marksmanship. Relearn marksmanship. Go hunting.

Chances are I'll never need to get into a protracted firefight with OPFOR, but I WILL 100% have to sneak up and shoot a deer.

The lessons I learn from sneaking up on deer are applicable to homeland defense; the same can't be said for the lessons learned from civilian MOUT training.

[Blownmotor]

I'd recommend watching some T-Rex arms videos on training. Their philosophy is focused primarily on marksmanship and speed drills. They do some tactical shooting but they cater to training civilians to shoot better.

[SDDAVE56]

Mid 80s for me.

Camp San Luis Obispo and Camp Cuesta

Yup, that sounds familiar.

[HKAllTheThings]

Rob Leatham once talked about teaching a class of Teir 1 special forces guys and then took them to a USPSA match. Their conclusion was the match was harder than combat. Main reason being that you have way more time to think about what you want to do. But the main takeaway that they had was that if you can't follow the simple directions for shooting a competition stage, you won't be able to carry out your plan to attack a target.

In IDPA, you do reload from behind cover and shoot from cover whereas USPSA is a free for all. But plenty of competition shooters do both without developing bad habits.

What does develop bad habits is if you only train to shoot a scenario one way. Doing the same thing over and over again can develop bad habits in that you only know one solution to solving a problem.

Match pressure is a real thing. The targets aren't shooting back or moving and their locations are known. And yet, even with all those advantages, a lot of new shooters have trouble executing a basic stage plan and getting their hits.

[protohyp]

The best thing about going to the range and training is you get trigger time and you can hone in on a single skill which is putting shots on target. Whether or not you decide to put some stress into that situation to see how you perform is up to you. You add the element of having some friendly competition with your friends on an outdoor range and you can see how well you perform against others.

THE WORST THING ABOUT TRAINING ON A RANGE.....is typically you perform these drills with the people that don't matter for lack of a better way to put it.

Training as a single person or with your friends, running and gunning is only a part of the scenario. You have a wife and kids or family members that have NEVER been to the range with you and have no clue what you are doing should the need arise for you to draw your weapon is setting yourself and your family and loved ones up for failure.

Mindset is the first thing you need to address. If its all about 'me' and my shooting skills well, thats great but what about the people I need to protect? if they're freaking out and dont have a task i.e. securing the kids, getting on the phone with law enforcement, etc how well do you expect to perform the task of protecting your family? The first time your kid hears the sound of gunfire should not be in a self defense scenario. You ever see a kid frozen in time or look of bewilderment when you start yelling at them to LOOK OUT!?

There is one thing that I can't stress to practice more than anything and thats shooting strong hand or support hand only. Imagine trying to shoot like you think you do on the range with a baby or kids or wife in your arms screaming and yelling.

You can take all the classes you want from the best instructors and practice those sub second draws and 2 second 1 to 1 reloads and become an excellent 'shooter' but the people that are depending on you to protect them NEED to know what your best laid plans are and they need to be a part of it and given a task.

Good luck

[19K]

Honestly, guys like garand thumb are in it for the money. They have a skill set. People want to see it so they show it off and get tons of views/subscribers/patreon/crowdsourcing/paid advertisements. Am I saying they are fake and have no clue what they are doing? Not all. He and others are great shots and very knowledgeable.

I think most people like to pretend they are operators and wish they were. They fall into that money pit to learn a skill set that will honestly never be used in any situation outside of a shooting range.

[RandyD]

I have competed in high power across the course matches and smallbore matches. These offer excellent training in shooting from prone, sitting, kneeling and standing positions. They also offer excellent training on understanding drop, and wind conditions and sight settings. This training offers the best foundation for understanding marksmanship.

Hunting offers excellent training on taking unexpected shots in differing terrain. As a teenager growing up in Phoenix, I had the opportunity to hunt cottontail rabbits several times a week with a .22 rifle. A cottontail rabbit zig zags and runs at speeds around 15-20 MPH, and offers an excellent opportunity to hit a fast moving target. Keep in mind a runner running a 6 minute mile is going only 10 MPH. If I need to hone my skills for combat, I would choose rabbit hunting over these combat courses.