Flat range vs scenario based training

[SaltyGod]

Hello CGNers!

Help a new guy out. I've been noticing several YouTube videos where guys like Garand Thumb and Brass Facts are running around in the desert in their kit, shooting around cars, reloading behind cover and other tactical stuff.

But then I see guys in the competition community don't do those kinds of things. I keep hearing from the tactical guys that what you do on the flat range isn't realistic and will set up bad habits. What do you guys think?! How do you guys train for self and homeland defense? Does anyone who's had gunfight experience weigh in here?

[SDDAVE56]

From the Academy, to retirement on the PD. We did a lot of both. Speed and precision drills, you never know the you're going to get caught "flat footed". Then the run and gun stuff, duck, and cover, shoot. Combat load, up load etc etc.

Barricade shooting, behind walls, mail box, seated in the Police car, firing over, and around it. I even attended an Advanced Officer Survival school up in San Luis Obispo. It was at some military base. The instructors were LE, Combat Vets, even a former CIA guy. I still remember his name by the way.

Now that was a hoot and a holler. We did shooting that we never did on the PD. I shot targets up in trees. Shot while prone, rolling over and over. I never shot upside down on my back before, but I hit the target!

[SDDAVE56]

PS. Focus on the basics, before you start running around with a loaded gun.

[Scotty]

Rob Leatham once talked about teaching a class of Teir 1 special forces guys and then took them to a USPSA match. Their conclusion was the match was harder than combat. Main reason being that you have way more time to think about what you want to do. But the main takeaway that they had was that if you can't follow the simple directions for shooting a competition stage, you won't be able to carry out your plan to attack a target.

In IDPA, you do reload from behind cover and shoot from cover whereas USPSA is a free for all. But plenty of competition shooters do both without developing bad habits.

What does develop bad habits is if you only train to shoot a scenario one way. Doing the same thing over and over again can develop bad habits in that you only know one solution to solving a problem.

[P5Ret]

PS. Focus on the basics, before you start running around with a loaded gun.

This^^

You have to have the basics down before you move onto advanced run and gun, and that is where the flat static range comes into play. Where do you think the "experts" started before they moved on to run and gun?

You can't train for every possible scenario, but you can train in solid fundamentals, that will help prepare for any situation. Many skills needed for run and gun can be practiced on a flat range.

Let's be real for a minute here, for most of us what are the chances that when things go to crap we are going to have all the toys with us? More than likely it will be more like the Greenwood Mall shooting by Eli Dickens, where basic marksmanship skills came more into play than run and gun scenarios. When it happens the best idea is to end the fight fast for that you have to have a solid foundation.

[benjamin101677]

[19K]

Hello CGNers!

Help a new guy out. I've been noticing several YouTube videos where guys like Garand Thumb and Brass Facts are running around in the desert in their kit, shooting around cars, reloading behind cover and other tactical stuff.

But then I see guys in the competition community don't do those kinds of things. I keep hearing from the tactical guys that what you do on the flat range isn't realistic and will set up bad habits. What do you guys think?! How do you guys train for self and homeland defense? Does anyone who's had gunfight experience weigh in here?

Not everyone is training to be tactical or for “homeland defense”

I like going to the range and ringing steel at 200-300-400-500 yards. Why would I want to run around with a plate carrier pretending to be in the army? I already did that **** 10 years ago.

Set up bad habits for what? When the world ends and you have to run around gunning down a foreign army? Unless you have missed the thousands of videos out of Ukraine, drones, artillery, MANPADS/stingers and javelins are seen more than dudes running and gunning with rifles. You don’t really see or hear Ukrainian troops doing platoon or company level movements against equal opponents. And the small squads that are moving around are using that tech.


The way we wiped out AQI in Iraq when faced head on, is probably what any professional army will do to civilians if they were able to invade the US.

[tabascoz28]

Watch nutnfancy at his outdoor range tests.

[Oneaudiopro]

Best advise I can contribute is ALWAYS be aware of your surroundings. No amount of training will prepare you for being caught by surprise and off guard. Avoid those situations that could put you in a compromising position. Thats all.

[SharedShots]

From the Academy, to retirement on the PD. We did a lot of both. Speed and precision drills, you never know the you're going to get caught "flat footed". Then the run and gun stuff, duck, and cover, shoot. Combat load, up load etc etc.

Barricade shooting, behind walls, mail box, seated in the Police car, firing over, and around it. I even attended an Advanced Officer Survival school up in San Luis Obispo. It was at some military base. The instructors were LE, Combat Vets, even a former CIA guy. I still remember his name by the way.

Now that was a hoot and a holler. We did shooting that we never did on the PD. I shot targets up in trees. Shot while prone, rolling over and over. I never shot upside down on my back before, but I hit the target!

When were you there? That was Camp San Luis Obispo and Camp Cuesta (the physical training portions) while the weapons retention training was over at the SO facility. They had that obsidian black EOC that looked like it belonged in a sci-fi movie. I was there several times in the mid-late 80s and also at CSTI several times which was also on the grounds.








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[HKAllTheThings]

Some good advice here already.

My only humble additions are:

I've noticed that dudes get bored of flat range training so they want to move into tactics training to keep things exciting and fresh. And then when you watch them doing their Australian peels or clearing rooms, you notice that their shooting skills are mediocre at best. For guys like that, more flat range and dryfire is needed, not less. Building durable shooting skills takes much longer to master than tactics training.

Also, our TTPs changed relatively frequently, at least from the Army side. Every 6 months, we'd update the training regimen based on the last deployment as the enemy was also adapting their tactics against ours. So, what we found is that the tactics taught last year largely would not apply anymore. Keep this in mind when you're training with someone teaching tactics. The more recent, the better.

Have fun.

[SharedShots]

Some good advice here already.

My only humble additions are:

I've noticed that dudes get bored of flat range training so they want to move into tactics training to keep things exciting and fresh. And then when you watch them doing their Australian peels or clearing rooms, you notice that their shooting skills are mediocre at best. For guys like that, more flat range and dryfire is needed, not less. Building durable shooting skills takes much longer to master than tactics training.

Also, our TTPs changed relatively frequently, at least from the Army side. Every 6 months, we'd update the training regimen based on the last deployment as the enemy was also adapting their tactics against ours. So, what we found is that the tactics taught last year largely would not apply anymore. Keep this in mind when you're training with someone teaching tactics. The more recent, the better.

Have fun.

Yup, gotta chuckle sometimes:

The Israeli two step
Australian Peel....

You know when it's wannabe and true believer time.





.

[FeuerFrei]

Tactical training is a business and they promote/advertise classes that are not cheap. YT gun monkies advertise bananas for the watcher monkies. "You NEED bananas!", "Ours is bestest!", "If you DON'T buy bananas, you're an unsafe IDIOT!"...
(bananas = tac training)

Learn and practice your fundamentals and keep your head outa your 6 at all times.
Do some force on force airsoft. No rules/expectations/drills.
Total mash up. You'll learn something new every time.

YT gun monkey adverts are strong JuJu. Back away from it into reality and loose the ego.

If you find yourself in a fight for your life and you're not cheating you're doing it wrong.

I know this is gonna generate some reaction from the training addicts

[SharedShots]

Tactical training is a business and they promote/advertise classes that are not cheap. YT gun monkies advertise bananas for the watcher monkies. "You NEED bananas!", "Ours is bestest!", "If you DON'T buy bananas, you're an unsafe IDIOT!"...
(bananas = tac training)

Learn and practice your fundamentals and keep your head outa your 6 at all times.
Do some force on force airsoft. No rules/expectations/drills.
Total mash up. You'll learn something new every time.

YT gun monkey adverts are strong JuJu. Back away from it into reality and loose the ego.

If you find yourself in a fight for your life and you're not cheating you're doing it wrong.

I know this is gonna generate some reaction from the training addicts

You mean that batman belts, lifetime subscriptions to tactijolly days and the choreographed everyone walks away a hero sessions isn't true?

You mean the ball cap, polo shirt, full beard, shooting glasses, and pleather belt don't make you better? Those magazine pads that make them bounce like superballs in a ping pong match aren't mandatory like the sideways John Wick grip?

Do you realize how many heads are exploding right now and the guy getting fitted for his Danners just shat his pants??




.

[SaltyGod]

Not everyone is training to be tactical or for “homeland defense”

I like going to the range and ringing steel at 200-300-400-500 yards. Why would I want to run around with a plate carrier pretending to be in the army? I already did that **** 10 years ago.

Set up bad habits for what? When the world ends and you have to run around gunning down a foreign army? Unless you have missed the thousands of videos out of Ukraine, drones, artillery, MANPADS/stingers and javelins are seen more than dudes running and gunning with rifles. You don’t really see or hear Ukrainian troops doing platoon or company level movements against equal opponents. And the small squads that are moving around are using that tech.

The way we wiped out AQI in Iraq when faced head on, is probably what any professional army will do to civilians if they were able to invade the US.

Sir, first, thank you for your service.

Second, do you think guys like Garand Thumb and Brass Facts are playing army? I don't really know since I am just starting out so I am asking here from the more experienced people. There is a lot of conflicting information out there.

Some good advice here already.

My only humble additions are:

I've noticed that dudes get bored of flat range training so they want to move into tactics training to keep things exciting and fresh. And then when you watch them doing their Australian peels or clearing rooms, you notice that their shooting skills are mediocre at best. For guys like that, more flat range and dryfire is needed, not less. Building durable shooting skills takes much longer to master than tactics training.

Also, our TTPs changed relatively frequently, at least from the Army side. Every 6 months, we'd update the training regimen based on the last deployment as the enemy was also adapting their tactics against ours. So, what we found is that the tactics taught last year largely would not apply anymore. Keep this in mind when you're training with someone teaching tactics. The more recent, the better.

Have fun.

Sir, you always have a lot of experience to contribute. Thank you again!

Tactical training is a business and they promote/advertise classes that are not cheap. YT gun monkies advertise bananas for the watcher monkies. "You NEED bananas!", "Ours is bestest!", "If you DON'T buy bananas, you're an unsafe IDIOT!"...
(bananas = tac training)

Learn and practice your fundamentals and keep your head outa your 6 at all times.
Do some force on force airsoft. No rules/expectations/drills.
Total mash up. You'll learn something new every time.

YT gun monkey adverts are strong JuJu. Back away from it into reality and loose the ego.

If you find yourself in a fight for your life and you're not cheating you're doing it wrong.

I know this is gonna generate some reaction from the training addicts

Sir, is this statement about the YouTube videos like Garand Thumb and Brass Facts or is this about the training industry in general? It is confusing for a new guy like me.