Training scars aren’t real

[HKAllTheThings]

https://www.police1.com/officer-shootings/articles/setting-the-record-straight-on-the-newhall-incident-qCwXs8stVK31qmSC/

[IrishJoe3]

Bit of a stretch, don't you think? Making the claim that because a specific urban legend isn't true then the concept of training scars is false?

[D.A.V.I.D.]

Sorry but this is a dumb conclusion you’ve made.

[thethreegs]

N/A

[IrishJoe3]

If you've become proficient in a skill, any skill - could be piano, could be SCUBA diving, could be Thai boxing etc - you would know very well that training scars are certainly a real thing.

This, most definitely.

I was talking to some medics recently. For years when they were teaching combat first aid in a training environment they would have the students hold the chest seal on the simulated patients chest. Until there was a real life shooting involving one of their students. In the after action review they found the student couldn't get the chest seal to stick to the real life gunshot victim.... because the student never removed the adhesive backing; a step that was never done in training.

It's important to remember that in a real life extreme stress situation human beings don't think logically, they simply react. Which is why there are so many videos of people repeatedly trying to put mag in backwards or forgetting to pull the adhesive backing off. Training helps condition that reaction. And you can get in trouble if you're unconsciously training the wrong reaction.

[HKAllTheThings]

As additional context, this is a continuation of a discussion spurred by Mike Glover's post about dry firing creating training scars:

https://www.instagram.com/p/ChsShFHJy7m/

For you dudes that have been in a lot of gunfights, think about how you and your teammates behaved, pre, during and post engagement and noticed whether any of the things you did on the flat range built a 'training scar.' These things are said in classes that have no basis in reality.

[hambam105]

I have a training scar alright, want to see it?

[johncage]

training scars are really. you don't want to turn a bad habit into second nature, then it happens automatically in a real situation

[FeuerFrei]

IMO there are people that become too dependent on "trainer's wisdom" and it is then accepted as gospel without any critical thinking. This can develop into a false sense of tactical intelligence because they are unable to apply what they learn to their life.

Taking classes by so and so operator level ex-LEO or MFR/SOF du jour does great for the adverts and fills the coffers of the trainers. It does not create operator level skills/habits. Bad habits are sometimes very hard to re-program.

*training classes are first and foremost a business. One that needs customers that will come back and spend their retirement dollars and believe they are getting value. Training true believers that hero worship and tell their friends.

*really valuable training for the public is prevented by lawyers/insurance companies.

*good training always has a high level of danger for the students and zero egos brought to class. That includes the instructors.

*ever have an instructor make you dump your hand gun in the dirt and then holster it before you begin a drill? My guess is not, cuz that's an ego killer right there. At that moment the condition of the gun becomes most important. Dirty/scratches/chance of damaging it/mag popped out etc. I've seen guys refuse to do it. I consider that a training scar.

My opinions are my own based on my first hand experience/observations. YMMV

[TKM]

This, most definitely.

I was talking to some medics recently. For years when they were teaching combat first aid in a training environment they would have the students hold the chest seal on the simulated patients chest. Until there was a real life shooting involving one of their students. In the after action review they found the student couldn't get the chest seal to stick to the real life gunshot victim.... because the student never removed the adhesive backing; a step that was never done in training.

It's important to remember that in a real life extreme stress situation human beings don't think logically, they simply react. Which is why there are so many videos of people repeatedly trying to put mag in backwards or forgetting to pull the adhesive backing off. Training helps condition that reaction. And you can get in trouble if you're unconsciously training the wrong reaction.

I have a friend who is a Swat Medic trainer for the Feds. Last year during training for combat CAT application, they had trainees take cover and call 911 instead of dragging their buddy to cover...........

[ldsnet]

Training scars are real! Especially when you train a certain way and then the situation changes up just a little bit.
Example: Take a guy that has a fantastic draw, fast smooth, excellent grip... then ask him to sit in a chair and now draw his weapon.
Same is true for a square range and always shooting from a standing position at a target; set up a simple obstacle so the shooter has to shoot UNDER something to get sights on target, you will see all sorts of improvisation and weapons handling that is probably very questionable (and this is why most places don't do it or allow it!)

[Spyder]

*good training always has a high level of danger for the students and zero egos brought to class. That includes the instructors.

*ever have an instructor make you dump your hand gun in the dirt and then holster it before you begin a drill? My guess is not, cuz that's an ego killer right there. At that moment the condition of the gun becomes most important. Dirty/scratches/chance of damaging it/mag popped out etc. I've seen guys refuse to do it. I consider that a training scar.

Always has a high level of danger for the students? Remind me not to ever be around you when you're handling guns.

You consider it a training scar when someone does not throw their handgun on the ground?

You mean like the James Yeager school where an instructor shot a students truck? (and then to top it off they refused to refund the student after they shot a students truck)

That's idiotic.

https://soldiersystems.net/2016/03/0...20the%20ground.

[FeuerFrei]

Always has a high level of danger for the students? Remind me not to ever be around you when you're handling guns.

You consider it a training scar when someone does not throw their handgun on the ground?

You mean like the James Yeager school where an instructor shot a students truck? (and then to top it off they refused to refund the student after they shot a students truck)

That's idiotic.

https://soldiersystems.net/2016/03/0...20the%20ground.

Your retort kinda makes my point. You extrapolate poorly.

We will never train together. You might break a nail and need to take a time out.

*anybody that breaks the 4 golden rules of firearm safety is stupid.

[Gun Kraft]

you don't want to turn a bad habit into second nature, then it happens automatically in a real situation

I think you first have to define what is a "training scar". I think it's something learned (muscle memory/habit)--either by commission (part of instruction) or omission (not taught)--as part of training that results in a problem. It doesn't have to be taught be someone else. It can be self-learned.

Self-learned training scar:
I've had students who unconsciously readjusted their grip after every shot even though they didn't need to. When I pointed it out to them and told them to keep their hands still after firing, they would still "wiggle" their support fingers even when consciously trying not to. Eventually they'd break out of that habit but it took a while.

Taught training scar:

For years when they were teaching combat first aid in a training environment they would have the students hold the chest seal on the simulated patients chest. In the after action review they found the student couldn't get the chest seal to stick to the real life gunshot victim.... because the student never removed the adhesive backing; a step that was never done in training.

Newhall may be a myth but that doesn't mean training scars as a concept isn't.

[19K]

Training scars are 100% real.

I recall watching a video on the initial invasion of the Iraq war. There was a marine who was shot and disabled because of a training scar. (Trying to find it. Will post if I do)

The marine had said throughout training they would shoot, and when the magazine was empty they would take the magazine out of the rifle and put it back into their pouch. They did this over and over and over.

While in Iraq he said he had a partial magazine and they came
Upon an insurgent. He fired at him 10+ times. He said he never shot someone and didn’t know the Iraqi was dead just that he kept moving everytime he hit him.

The magazine empties he starts to reload when another insurgent appeared and began firing at him. He said he was fumbling with removing the magazine and trying to reinsert it back into his magazine pouch. By the time he did that and retrieved a fresh magazine he had been shot a few times at close range. I believe another marine saw this and killed the other insurgent.