Carry at Work

[SharedShots]

Ok for me but not for thee?

Hmm.

When it comes to private property, yes. When you cross my property line you don't get to do as you, please, I am not the government and you are on my property or in my home at my pleasure, not yours.

For a business, they have to consider everyone, not just you and just how many shootings at the workplace were perpetrated by employees carrying a gun? A significant percentage. If a company allows employees to carry on the jobsite and that employee who carries decides to shoot other employees does anyone believe lawsuits don't flow blaming the employer even when it was the employee who did the dirty deed?

Constitutional carry is the answer and before anyone squawks at businesses that don't allow carry at work remember, businesses get sued because some fool spilled hot coffee on their lap and aid the coffee was too hot or the lid came off as they sat in their car.

Get sued once and see how fast you come up with a policy to disallow things to prevent another suit. For your own home, get sued because someone slipped and fell and see how you react. Suddenly signs go up, private property, no trespassing etc.

Guess why so many landowners don't let people shoot on their wide open spaces. Because others think they have some rights on other people's property and take advantage, shooting up things, poaching and putting the people who own the place in danger. The people who trash open spaces, dump appliances they shoot up and shoot any animal that moves are all gun owners.

In the end, yes, rights for me and not for thee on my property and too bad, you don't have to come here, I'm not the government and BTW, I get to have you leave if what you are talking about; if you want free speech there is a gate so step onto public property and scream to your hearts content.

[mshill]

Now everyone knows.

I think the whole CCW scheme in California is flawed, for many reasons. I think Constitutional carry is what the Constitution intends. That said:

Just what is the purpose of your post other than to tell everyone what only two people knew before and that your word means nothing?

When you entered into an agreement with HP to take the job offered and work in exchange for compensation that was binding on you, it was your word, you integrity, ethics and honesty among other characteristics on the line.

Did the IA issuing that CCW have a policy of no carry where 6a business prohibited it through policy known to you? If so that brings up something else but for now:

You gave your word in agreement, signed documents attesting to that agreement and accepted money and benefits from HP.

When you decided to carry you could have remained true to your word and either sought a waiver to carry at work, try to change that policy or seek employment somewhere else. Yet for years you just ignored your agreement and since you didn't say you asked for a waiver nor to change the policy (since only two other people knew about your carry at work) you did neither.

Now you come here and brag about how you did this for years. Instead of keeping that information to yourself you came here to tell the world. Oh nice, you sure pulled the wool over HPs eyes.

If you'd lie (which is what it was at the very least, a fraud very likely) about that, what else wouldn't you lie about? Would you claim you are a trustworthy person? How so and based on what you did and acknowledged in public you can't begin to prove it.

It is one thing to enter into a contract for something like work where there is a no carry policy and upon deciding you'd carry anyway ask for aa waiver, try to change the policy or leave and go elsewhere and an entirely different thing to carry anyway and think you did anything right, enough to tell everyone else about it, which it what you just did.

HP dodged a bullet (no pun intended) because you're out of their company. What you did represents the worst of gun owners, contempt for those who hire you to do a job, pay you well (HP is known for that although that is subjective), likely violating the conditions of your CCW, displaying a lack of trust, honesty and integrity on a bunch of levels.

What you did isn't like someone who takes to a civil disobedience of some government action where you aren't accepting money from others where you agree to abide by some condition, this is way beyond that.

There are lots of laws surrounding gun control that many people don't agree with but we all have choices, to declare non-compliance openly and deal with the consequences, non-compliance without harm to others (and you harmed HP) and deal with the consequences if caught, to leave the State as many have done and so on. Instead, you did none of those because you did harm HP. This is now public information, a search for HP and carrying guns at work will reveal your post. That could be argued to have damaged their reputation in that their security systems are inadequate because if you could carry there for five years without being caught so could any BG.

I'm not a lawyer but I wonder if HP couldn't take your post and then bring suit against you for some kind of fraud.

When others read your post and I'm not talking about the others who cheer you on and have done likewise, their conclusion that gun owners who have CCWs are untrustworthy might be justified and you'd be the perfect example.

But maybe you could answer one question although who in their right mind would trust the answer - why did you post that? Was it to brag? Was it to help anyone? Was it support some cause? What i something else like conscience?

.

That's quite a pedestal your standing on, careful not to fall off. I simply don't trust my safety to others. My employer got their moneys worth and I fortunately never had to exercise my right to self defense.

[SMarquez]

When I worked for Bass Pro in late 15 and most of 16, their employees handbook stated carrying was acceptable in compliance of local laws. I carried, no one ever noticed or asked.

[johncage]

Now everyone knows.

I think the whole CCW scheme in California is flawed, for many reasons. I think Constitutional carry is what the Constitution intends. That said:

Just what is the purpose of your post other than to tell everyone what only two people knew before and that your word means nothing?

When you entered into an agreement with HP to take the job offered and work in exchange for compensation that was binding on you, it was your word, you integrity, ethics and honesty among other characteristics on the line.

Did the IA issuing that CCW have a policy of no carry where a business prohibited it through policy known to you? If so that brings up something else but for now:

You gave your word in agreement, signed documents attesting to that agreement and accepted money and benefits from HP.

When you decided to carry you could have remained true to your word and either sought a waiver to carry at work, try to change that policy or seek employment somewhere else. Yet for years you just ignored your agreement and since you didn't say you asked for a waiver nor to change the policy (since only two other people knew about your carry at work) you did neither.

Now you come here and brag about how you did this for years. Instead of keeping that information to yourself you came here to tell the world. Oh nice, you sure pulled the wool over HPs eyes.

If you'd lie (which is what it was at the very least, a fraud very likely) about that, what else wouldn't you lie about? Would you claim you are a trustworthy person? How so and based on what you did and acknowledged in public you can't begin to prove it.

It is one thing to enter into a contract for something like work where there is a no carry policy and upon deciding you'd carry anyway ask for aa waiver, try to change the policy or leave and go elsewhere and an entirely different thing to carry anyway and think you did anything right, enough to tell everyone else about it, which it what you just did.

HP dodged a bullet (no pun intended) because you're out of their company. What you did represents the worst of gun owners, contempt for those who hire you to do a job, pay you well (HP is known for that although that is subjective), likely violating the conditions of your CCW, displaying a lack of trust, honesty and integrity on a bunch of levels.

What you did isn't like someone who takes to a civil disobedience of some government action where you aren't accepting money from others where you agree to abide by some condition, this is way beyond that.

There are lots of laws surrounding gun control that many people don't agree with but we all have choices, to declare non-compliance openly and deal with the consequences, non-compliance without harm to others (and you harmed HP) and deal with the consequences if caught, to leave the State as many have done and so on. Instead, you did none of those because you did harm HP. This is now public information, a search for HP and carrying guns at work will reveal your post. That could be argued to have damaged their reputation in that their security systems are inadequate because if you could carry there for five years without being caught so could any BG.

I'm not a lawyer but I wonder if HP couldn't take your post and then bring suit against you for some kind of fraud.

When others read your post and I'm not talking about the others who cheer you on and have done likewise, their conclusion that gun owners who have CCWs are untrustworthy might be justified and you'd be the perfect example.

But maybe you could answer one question although who in their right mind would trust the answer - why did you post that? Was it to brag? Was it to help anyone? Was it support some cause? What i something else like conscience?




.

private property is different from a place of business. people don't need to go to your house, but they do need to make a living. companies enforcing these policies are practicing discrimination and in violation of the constitution. the universal and absolute right to bear arms does not get to be suspended because of someone's personal fears. and yes i will carry a gun into a person's private property too and if they have a problem with that, they should take it up with the founders...and do some introspection over their irrational fear of an inanimate object.

also, if these liability policies are based on any real risk evaluation or study, rather than just a reflection of the hoplophobic culture and attitudes of the city in which the company is based, they should probably look at what is more damaging and likely, the chances of some armed employee accidentally discharging or a gunman mowing down the entire building unimpeded. but since they're protected in the latter case from lawsuit, they don't care. at least the scary gun isn't in the building lol.

respecting these polices is just assimilating to the modern sensibility of liberal hipsters who think guns are dangerous and unnecessary and gun owners are "liabilities". if work place accidental discharges were a thing, i might actually be in favor, but they are not. those who chose not to comply understand these policies aren't based on fact or reality, they're meant to protect people's feelings and coddle their irrational fears.

[slayer61]

My plant is pretty low keyed.

It's more of no CCW aloud rather than no CCW allowed.

[SharedShots]

That's quite a pedestal your standing on, careful not to fall off. I simply don't trust my safety to others. My employer got their moneys worth and I fortunately never had to exercise my right to self defense.

The pedestal is you thinking you have rights when you step onto someone else's property or inside their home, you don't. First, you can only be there by invitation and if you don't agree with the conditions of that invitation, go find another party. Maybe you are confused about the difference between private and public property.

[SharedShots]

private property is different from a place of business. people don't need to go to your house, but they do need to make a living. companies enforcing these policies are practicing discrimination and in violation of the constitution. the universal and absolute right to bear arms does not get to be suspended because of someone's personal fears. and yes i will carry a gun into a person's private property too and if they have a problem with that, they should take it up with the founders...and do some introspection over their irrational fear of an inanimate object.

.

Good luck with that. There is no irrational fear of the inanimate object, its people that think they have some right to bring a gun onto private property as a worker for a company (like a tradesperson) who think their rights supersede that of the property owner where its wrong.

You might think the Constitution gives you a right to carry a gun on someone else's property but it doesn't.

[jeremiah12]

private property is different from a place of business. people don't need to go to your house, but they do need to make a living. companies enforcing these policies are practicing discrimination and in violation of the constitution. the universal and absolute right to bear arms does not get to be suspended because of someone's personal fears. and yes i will carry a gun into a person's private property too and if they have a problem with that, they should take it up with the founders...and do some introspection over their irrational fear of an inanimate object.

I bolded the part that really is an oxymoron in a free society. Really, you have a Constitutional right to have a job? Some private employer somewhere is required to hire you because you have a right to make a living?

This is Marxist Ideology.

The only discrimination not allowed under the constitution is based on race, religion or sex, or sexual orientation. That is it.

Remember, we live in a Right to Work state. So if I say I do not my employees to wear yellow to work, and an employee comes to work wearing yellow, I can fire that employee. The safest way to do so is to say your services are no longer needed, good by. If I give a reason, the employee can file a suit that I have to defend against.

That is why employers have to have job descriptions, to help measure potential employees to determine which one best suited for the job and to protect against suits against various forms of discrimination.

Employers also have to deal with state and federal laws dealing with safety in the workplace. They are liable for everything their employees do. If an employee goes off the rails, the employer is the one fined and sued and pays out the big bucks in settlements. An employee has an accident, the same thing happens. When accidents happen, we all have to go through that stupid training again on what not to do. Every year, as a teacher, I have to go through stupid training sessions because some teacher screws up. I can count on doing extra trainings at least once a quarter because a teacher leaves a student alone in a classroom unsupervised and the student is injured, or some other stupidity.

No Constitutional Right is absolute and universal. Our Founding Fathers even knew that.and set it up that way. In fact, Constitutional Rights are much more universal that first envisioned.

Originally, the Constitution was a constraint on the Federal Government and not on state governments. SCOTUS ruled that way for nearly the first 100 years. So states could completely ban guns if they wished to because the 2A only applied to the Federal Government.

The concept called Incorporation under the 14th Amendment is what finally caused various parts of the Bill of Rights to finally apply to the states. The 2A was not incorporated until MacDonald v Chicago in 2010, so it did not apply to the states until very recently.

Originally, the NRA did not want the Heller v DC case to go forward for fear it would be a loss and the 2A would not be incorporated. It was better to fight at the state level and get wins were possible than to lose the incorporation battle and then lose the fight against gun control nationwide.

Like all parts of the Bill of Rights, it only applies to public property. You go to work and cuss out your boss, you get fired. You can argue that you were exercising your 1A right all you want, you are still fired.

My dad was talking politics at work and told to stop. He did not, and was fired. He hired an attorney and sued to get his job back. He lost. The judge told him at work he does not have a 1A, even at lunch time as long as he is on the employers property. His talking politics created a hostile work environment and many people complained, he was told to stop and he did not, people still complained, so he was fired.

Yep, people had their feelings hurt, but legally, the employer had to follow through because the people claiming it was a hostile work environment could turn around and sue the employer or my dad could have claimed the others were also talking politics and he was working in a hostile work environment.

When at work, your time belongs to the employer. You follow his rules, or you do not have a job. If the employer finds out that you are carrying when the policy is no guns at work, you will be fired. You very likely will have a police report filed. If you do not have a CCW, expect a citation. If you have a CCW, expect to lose it. If you do not have a CCW, you will have a court date and the outcome can be loss of your 2A rights for a period of time or for life.

Now, if you want to carry at work, join the military, become a law enforcement officer, or become self-employed. Nobody owes you a job.

Just because you need to make a living does not mean you have a Constitutional right to carry a gun a work just the same it does not mean you have a 1A right while at work.

Years ago, I would have been fine with letting people come to my home carrying guns. Since then I have seen too many idiots at the range. I have witnessed too many supposed gun people do stupid things with guns like pose for pictures with guns pointed at their heads or pointing them at others and when I call them out on it they say do not worry, it is unloaded. To prove it they pull the trigger which just adds to the stupidity. We see more of this in the headlines every day. Then I see some here making unintelligent statements.

Now, there are very few I would let into my home while they were carrying. I will carry a gun into someone's home even if they are absolutely against shows complete lack of respect.

You would not like it if I came into your home and started looking through everything, putting my dirty shoes on your couch, going through your refrigerator and whatever else. You would want me to respect your rules of your home.

If someone does not want you to be armed in their home, that is fine, you get to decide if you will be in there home or not. My grandfather hated guns, and had his reasons, so I respected his wishes and never went to his home with a gun. I visited him often because he was the closest thing to a father I ever had and he loved me more than my father ever did.

[jeremiah12]

Good luck with that. There is no irrational fear of the inanimate object, its people that think they have some right to bring a gun onto private property as a worker for a company (like a tradesperson) who think their rights supersede that of the property owner where its wrong.

You might think the Constitution gives you a right to carry a gun on someone else's property but it doesn't.

This reminded me of something. Three years ago, we hired a contractor to build an addition to our house. I have asthma and tobacco smoke is one of my worst triggers. Even a brief exposure can set off a major attack and has landed me in the ER. It has been a very long time since I have been hospitalized with asthma.

The one rule I had was the workers could not smoke on my property. The work was being done in the summer and I was doing some of the work. I have a large lot and in the back yard, under a large shade tree, I set up a table and a few chairs. I did designate that the smoking area because that was far enough from the work area and the house so the smoke would not affect me. They could also smoke off the property in the front.

I knew one of the guys because he did some repair work on our house a few years earlier and he smokes. I set this up for him knowing he would be here. He had no problem. He told the other smoker about and I also discussed it with him.

Well, the other guy just kept lighting up in the work area. I asked him several times to stop and use the smoking area. By day 3 I had an asthma attack that sent me to the ER. When I returned I told him to leave. He said I could not fire him and he would not leave. I called the contractor and told him what was going on. I handed the phone to the guy and the contractor told him he was fired. Had he left when I told him to, he still would have had a job.

Since he did not just leave, but stuck around and gave me the I have a right to smoke spiel, he was fired. The contractor was worried I would submit a claim for the asthma attack is worker trigger. I could have. I have insurance so I was good and I did not want to burn any bridges with the contractor. It made it easier later when my wife made a couple of changes.

[Ash359]

Fired only or fired and sent to jail?

So if carrying with a permit is still against company policy and someone gets caught carrying.

Obviously they would be fired but would there be any criminal liability.

Is the permit still valid while carrying against company policy?

[Librarian]

So if carrying with a permit is still against company policy and someone gets caught carrying.

Obviously they would be fired but would there be any criminal liability.

Is the permit still valid while carrying against company policy?

Depends somewhat on conditions that may be attached by your issuing agency. Some IAs sometimes explicitly state a CCW is not valid while working.

If you had such a condition, then there could be criminal liability if detected, for concealed without a (currently valid) CCW.

[Ash359]

Thanks, that makes sense

[CandG]

My workplace (in the manufacturing industry) is an oddball one.

We're in CA, and we actually have a "weapons allowed" policy, believe it or not. In fact, it's even encouraged.

But, oddly, I'm the only employee who actually exercises it. My boss even personally wrote a letter of recommendation for me to get my CCW back when my county required heightened good cause (they don't anymore). I carry every day, almost everyone knows it, but nobody else does it.

[BigPimping]

You would be shocked at the level of security in some oil refineries. I work there, I know. But NASA is a different animal.