G19 or PX4

[neouser]

By definition, double action means the trigger pull can both cock and then fire the handgun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_action

https://niof.org/single-action-double-action-defined/

Since the Glock action can never be cocked with the trigger pull, it is never double action, much less double action only (DAO). Examples of DAO handguns include the SIG P250, the original Ruger LC9 (not the LC9s), and DAO revolvers with concealed hammers like the S&W 642.

Since the Glock trigger pull only fires but never cocks the pistol it would be considered single action only (SAO).
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This isn't entirely accurate either. The Glock is a pre-set striker fired pistol and is not single-action.

Single Action
I associate true single action triggers with hammer operated pistols, as the hammer is tensioned in the rearward position and pulling the trigger actuates the sear, which releases the hammer. Pulling the trigger only performs one action: releasing the hammer.

Double Action
A true double action trigger performs two actions: drawing the hammer back, and then releasing the hammer. Once the trigger is released to it's full forward position, the hammer can be actuated again without requiring slide reciprocation to reset the trigger.

Striker Fired
A striker fired pistol does not utilize a hammer. It operates the pistol by keeping the firing pin under tension in the rearward position and, upon a pull of the trigger, lowers the sear and releases the firing pin. Typical striker fired pistols include the Springfield XD series, the Sig P320 series, etc.

Pre-Set Striker Fired
The pre-set striker fired pistol is almost unique to Glock, but could include pistols like the Kahr series and Smith and Wesson SD series. Pulling the trigger draws the striker back and releases it when the trigger is in the rearward most position. However, like a normal striker fired pistol, it requires the slide to reciprocate to engage the sear with the striker and reset the pistol. With the pre-set striker fired pistol, the trigger performs the action of drawing the striker and releasing it.

Just wanted to clarify the difference between the actions. Glocks don't really fall under "single action" either because they perform the act of drawing the striker and releasing it. While I wouldn't consider the Glock a double action, it's a lot closer to the double action than the single action. The biggest difference is that it requires the slide to reciprocate to reset the action for the next shot whereas a traditional double action doesn't. But it's definitely not a single action as is performs the act of "cocking" the striker.

[Milsurp Collector]

This isn't entirely accurate either. The Glock is a pre-set striker fired pistol and is not single-action.

Single Action
I associate true single action triggers with hammer operated pistols, as the hammer is tensioned in the rearward position and pulling the trigger actuates the sear, which releases the hammer. Pulling the trigger only performs one action: releasing the hammer.

Double Action
A true double action trigger performs two actions: drawing the hammer back, and then releasing the hammer. Once the trigger is released to it's full forward position, the hammer can be actuated again without requiring slide reciprocation to reset the trigger.

Striker Fired
A striker fired pistol does not utilize a hammer. It operates the pistol by keeping the firing pin under tension in the rearward position and, upon a pull of the trigger, lowers the sear and releases the firing pin. Typical striker fired pistols include the Springfield XD series, the Sig P320 series, etc.

Pre-Set Striker Fired
The pre-set striker fired pistol is almost unique to Glock, but could include pistols like the Kahr series and Smith and Wesson SD series. Pulling the trigger draws the striker back and releases it when the trigger is in the rearward most position. However, like a normal striker fired pistol, it requires the slide to reciprocate to engage the sear with the striker and reset the pistol. With the pre-set striker fired pistol, the trigger performs the action of drawing the striker and releasing it.

Just wanted to clarify the difference between the actions. Glocks don't really fall under "single action" either because they perform the act of drawing the striker and releasing it. While I wouldn't consider the Glock a double action, it's a lot closer to the double action than the single action. The biggest difference is that it requires the slide to reciprocate to reset the action for the next shot whereas a traditional double action doesn't. But it's definitely not a single action as is performs the act of "cocking" the striker.

The Glock striker is cocked by manipulating the slide when first chambering a round or to dry fire, and subsequently by the recoil of the slide when a round is fired. The striker is never cocked i.e. putting the firing pin spring (yes, that's what it is called https://www.glockparts.com/category/...in-springs.htm) under compression with the trigger pull. You can't put the pistol in a condition to fire simply by pulling the trigger. All double action handguns whether DA/SA or DAO allow the firearm to go from a condition where there is no tension on the hammer or striker/firing pin spring to one where the spring is under compression or tension with a long trigger pull.

You can debate whether a firearm needs a hammer to be single action only, but that is a fine point. If a firearm like a Glock can't be "cocked" - the striker made ready to fire - in any mode just by pulling the trigger, it isn't double action in any way, much less double action only (DAO). If you are dry firing a Glock you have to manually cycle the slide to cock the striker before pulling the trigger if you want anything to happen. You can't recock it by just pulling the trigger.

Take an empty Glock - or 1911 - that is not cocked and pull the trigger. What happens? Nothing. Then cycle the slide of the Glock and 1911 and then pull the trigger. The Glock's striker will strike and the 1911's hammer will fall, striking the firing pin. In both cases trigger is doing only one "single" action - releasing the striker or hammer. It is incapable of cocking the action by design.

Then pick up an empty Beretta 92 or original Ruger LC9 that isn't cocked and pull the trigger. The trigger will cock the action and as the pull is continued release the action. Pull the trigger again and the same thing will happen. The trigger performs the "double" action of first cocking the action and then releasing it. Same thing with a DA/SA or DAO revolver. The Glock action is nothing like that.


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[hermosabeach]

Why

I was in the same boat as you. I went for the 19. If I had to do it over, I would get the PX4 first. I have both now..

To sound like a child - why? Why PX4 over G19?

Need single / double action vs Glock striker
Need de cocker/ external safety


—-
Op

Ignore marketing from all companies. Mathematics says recoil for a 9mm is the same for every gun -
If the cartridge produces 350 ft pounds of energy-
The only difference will be the weight of the Gun

— in reality some guns will have more muzzle rise or muzzle flip. Others will push back straighter towards the shooter.
— Glock came out with Gen 3,4,5, etc as a way to upgrade the public and police departments. I don’t think there is any proof that a ten 3,4 or 5 has any noticeable change in recoil. Same bullet - same weight of gun. Same length of movement for the slide. Physics says recoil is the same

Some guns seem snappier than others based upon ratio of weight or slide to frame or if they are compact or full size.


—
If possible get the wife to try both. Find a friend who has them, rental range, etc.

The LAX range charges $15 + Ammo to rent. You can try every handgun for the $15 fee- one at a time

The gun people are the most confident with is the one they will most likely use and practice with....

[IVC]

By definition, double action means the trigger pull can both cock and then fire the handgun.

Since the Glock action can never be cocked with the trigger pull, it is never double action, much less double action only (DAO). Examples of DAO handguns include the SIG P250, the original Ruger LC9 (not the LC9s), and DAO revolvers with concealed hammers like the S&W 642.

Since the Glock trigger pull only fires but never cocks the pistol it would be considered single action only (SAO).

Glock trigger does compress the striker spring and without the trigger pull the striker doesn't have enough energy to ignite the primer (maybe some special primers, but nothing like the garden variety that Glocks will fire without fail).

The double strike capability is different concept from action type. While single action can never have double strike capability (it would imply operating the mainspring, which would imply double action), not all double action guns have double strike. The polymer strikers are typical example of double action guns without double strike capability.

To be considered single action, Glock would have to be able to fire without using the extra energy from the trigger pull to compress the striker, so it's not a single action. Whether it is DAO will depend on the definition of the "double action." I go by the definition that the trigger must be doing two actions at the same time, and not that it is in any way connected to the double strike capability. So, either way Glock cannot be a SA/SAO. The question is whether we are going to call it DAO or create a euphemism such as "safe action" (or whatever they call it these days).

[Milsurp Collector]

Whether it is DAO will depend on the definition of the "double action." I go by the definition that the trigger must be doing two actions at the same time, and not that it is in any way connected to the double strike capability.

But that's not the standard definition of double action only (DAO).

But the correct technical definition of DAO is a system where trigger pressure performs the twin functions of cocking and firing. Since the P320 is already cocked, the trigger can only release the striker. It would have to be more like an SAO (single-action-only) trigger. It would probably be better to say that DA and SA are terms that define trigger action as it relates to the pistol's lockwork. Leave the clearing of passive safeties out of the equation, even though they make some of these trigger systems feel very DA-like. Somehow, the term DAO has come to be associated with greater safety in handling, so it is unlikely that the makers will cease using it on guns that are clearly fully cocked.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/4/23/clarifying-double-action-only-dao/

With double action only the long trigger pull is necessary to cock the hammer. In fact, I can't think of a true DAO firearm - whether it is the SIG P250, Ruger LC9, or the various S&W revolver with hidden hammer - that doesn't have a hammer. The Glock certainly doesn't have a hammer. Can you cock a Glock just by pulling the trigger? No, you can't. With any true DAO firearm? Yes, you can.

I guess you could argue the Glock isn't a pure single action only since it pushes the already-cocked striker back slightly before releasing it, but in no way is it "double action only" (DAO) in the way that term is commonly used.




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[Robert1234]

PX4 is DA/SA.

Unless whoever you're buying it for will practice the DA part of DA/SA, stick with striker fired guns.

[neouser]

The Glock striker is cocked by manipulating the slide when first chambering a round or to dry fire, and subsequently by the recoil of the slide when a round is fired. The striker is never cocked i.e. putting the firing pin spring (yes, that's what it is called https://www.glockparts.com/category/...in-springs.htm) under compression with the trigger pull. You can't put the pistol in a condition to fire simply by pulling the trigger. All double action handguns whether DA/SA or DAO allow the firearm to go from a condition where there is no tension on the hammer or striker/firing pin spring to one where the spring is under compression or tension with a long trigger pull.

You can debate whether a firearm needs a hammer to be single action only, but that is a fine point. If a firearm like a Glock can't be "cocked" - the striker made ready to fire - in any mode just by pulling the trigger, it isn't double action in any way, much less double action only (DAO). If you are dry firing a Glock you have to manually cycle the slide to cock the striker before pulling the trigger if you want anything to happen. You can't recock it by just pulling the trigger.

Take an empty Glock - or 1911 - that is not cocked and pull the trigger. What happens? Nothing. Then cycle the slide of the Glock and 1911 and then pull the trigger. The Glock's striker will strike and the 1911's hammer will fall, striking the firing pin. In both cases trigger is doing only one "single" action - releasing the striker or hammer. It is incapable of cocking the action by design.

Then pick up an empty Beretta 92 or original Ruger LC9 that isn't cocked and pull the trigger. The trigger will cock the action and as the pull is continued release the action. Pull the trigger again and the same thing will happen. The trigger performs the "double" action of first cocking the action and then releasing it. Same thing with a DA/SA or DAO revolver. The Glock action is nothing like that.




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You need to watch the video starting at 13 seconds. Your description makes it sounds like you don't understand the mechanical operation of a Glock pistol.

Additionally, you're confusing the term "double action only" with "double action." Double action means to perform two functions, hence the use of the term "double" vs. "single." As I stated in my prior post, which touches on the exact point you made above (bolded):

"While I wouldn't consider the Glock a double action, it's a lot closer to the double action than the single action. The biggest difference is that it requires the slide to reciprocate to reset the action for the next shot whereas a traditional double action doesn't. But it's definitely not a single action as is performs the act of "cocking" the striker."

EDIT: This guy's video demonstrates the difference. I would be reluctant to call striker fired pistols "single action" and "double action" like this guy does, but he nails the comparison perfectly and gives a good demonstration comparing a Springfield XD to "single action" and a Glock to "double action." The full travel of the sear/striker is seen at 45 seconds.

[neouser]

Glock trigger does compress the striker spring and without the trigger pull the striker doesn't have enough energy to ignite the primer (maybe some special primers, but nothing like the garden variety that Glocks will fire without fail)...

This is correct. Unless the striker in a Glock is drawn back to full compression before being released, it lacks sufficient velocity and force to ignite the primer. Unlike typical striker fired pistols, which hold the striker under full tension until released by the sear, Glock strikers are only "pre-set" and require a full draw to compress and release. That's why Glock triggers have some resistance before reaching the wall.

Additionally, what I find pleasant about the positive pressure of the pre-set Glock trigger is that it gives enough resistance to force a quick reset for successive follow up shots. (And gives the tactile and audible "click" when it resets.) When I shoot single action, SA/DA, and typical striker fired pistols, I feel like the resets are slow and non-responsive compared to the Glock.

[IVC]

But that's not the standard definition of double action only (DAO).

That's the problem with quite a bit of firearm terminology - there isn't a single definition, so the argument is often about the wording and not about the substance. I would argue that it *is* the standard definition of the DAO, but I allow that some people use different definitions.

As far as triggers go, I use a clean definition of "single action" to mean just releasing the sear and "double action" to mean anything in addition to this. It helps with more complex triggers such as HK LEM or Sig DAK (I own both and DAK has three different pull weights and two reset points, while LEM has a two part hammer with two different pull weights). Since these triggers do more than just releasing the sear, they are *not* single action and since neither of the guns can fire off of fully cocked/tensioned mainspring, they are DAO. I guess there will be those who will use different classification, it's just words.

Other similar disagreements over terminology happen when discussing "assault weapons" or "large capacity magazines," both of which are in the CA code so they do have a strict *legal* definition, but it's not the only definition nor even the relevant definition - legally one can declare pizza a vegetable to get around some regulations, but it doesn't make it so. Also, you'll find a lot of disagreement about the safety rules - three vs. four, what do they actually say, especially the first one, etc.

[hardcore4sure]

Having had both, PX4 wins! Traded my favorite G-19 for a M&P .40, which I traded for a PX4 9mm. Now I have Have, the LTT trigger bar and hammer spring which is now unmatched! Incredibly soft/flat shooting, light & smooth DA/SA pull with instantaneous reset.

[norcalAF]

If your wife won't be carrying it, then get a 4 inch .357 mag revolver. Load it with .38s and take her to the range, she will like the simplicity and the soft shooting. You can throw magnum rounds in it whenever you want to. I really like my Match champion and it is left loaded with .38s for my wife. No slide to rack etc, just grab and go.

[Milsurp Collector]

Additionally, you're confusing the term "double action only" with "double action." Double action means to perform two functions, hence the use of the term "double" vs. "single." As I stated in my prior post, which touches on the exact point you made above (bolded):

I'm not confusing anything. I disputed IVC's claim that the Glock's action is "DAO" (double action only). Do you agree with this statement?

If you're going to carry, personally I would choose the G19 because of DAO trigger and no external safeties.

That's the problem with quite a bit of firearm terminology - there isn't a single definition, so the argument is often about the wording and not about the substance. I would argue that it *is* the standard definition of the DAO, but I allow that some people use different definitions.

Can you provide any source that agrees with your definition of DAO, or that agrees with your claim that the Glock has a DAO trigger? If you are just going to make up your own definitions then we are wasting our time.

You and neouser seem to be saying a trigger that does any two actions is "double action", but that's not the standard (accepted) definition of "double action". On a 1911 with a Series 80 firing pin safety system pulling the trigger disengages the firing pin block. Pulling a modern 1911's trigger does two things. That doesn't make a 1911 "DAO" or double action just because the trigger pull does two things.

I have provided several sources that agree with my definition of double action. Again, either of you please provide a source that backs up IVC's statement that the Glock 19 or any Glock is "DAO" (double action only). Thanks in advance.


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[IVC]

Can you provide any source that agrees with your definition of DAO, or that agrees with your claim that the Glock has a DAO trigger? If you are just going to make up your own definitions then we are wasting our time.

Search results, with GlockTalk at the top...

(And everyone seems to call it "splitting hairs" because it's really not that big of a deal what we call it.)

Separately, the second action must be about preparing the mainspring for firing, not about disengaging the safety. That's the usual definition.

[Milsurp Collector]

Search results, with GlockTalk at the top...

(And everyone seems to call it "splitting hairs" because it's really not that big of a deal what we call it.)

Separately, the second action must be about preparing the mainspring for firing, not about disengaging the safety. That's the usual definition.

That link is to a discussion forum like this one where various people are sharing opinions like this

The Glock is classified as a DAO but that's splitting hairs. In the real world it walks and talks like SA. Really it's an ingenious design so it makes sense just to use Glock's Safe Action description.

Since the trigger half cocks the striker, guess you could call it 1.5 Action

there's no question the glock is double action.


it performs two actions when the trigger is pulled: cocks the striker, and releases it.

Incorrect. Nice try though. The striker is already "half cocked" when the slide is racked. I understand the trigger cocks the striker half way then releases it, but you are not accounting for the initial position when the stiker is "half cocked" making it similar to a single action. its neither, no matter how you look at it. Thank you Mr. Gaston!

Its neither [single action nor double action]

I know in everything official about Glocks they have always been considered double action, but I look at them more as single action. In my mind, a double action pistol is one that you can dry fire and keep pulling the trigger time after time, because it doesnt need a live round to reset the action. Where, dry firing a glock is like dry firing a 1911, where you have to reset the action between trigger pulls. 1911= Cocking the hammer. Glock = Full or partial rack of the slide. So in my mind, it is more like a single action than a double action.

If the trigger cocks the striker then why doesn't the Glock have restrike capability?

The bottom line is the term "double action" is insufficient to describe the Glock.

After reading the comments in that forum I would agree that the Glock has a unique action that is neither traditional single action nor double action. However I can't put it in the same category as DAO handguns like the SIG P250, Ruger LC9, or the DAO Colt 1991.



But that thread had some interesting discussions, so thanks for that.

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[orangeusa]

Good gosh, these guys should debate the DAO/Glock/Pistol/Revolver thing elsewhere.

The PX4 has a rotating barrel which really tames recoil, although with 9mm, recoil is really light.

It makes a difference on hot 40 cal loads tho...

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