Flare Gun Insert Legalities

[dancinzen]

Hello Y'all,
I know this has probably been discussed here but when I searched it nothing comes up. I also have been searching and for clear answers and am finding nothing helpful. Please let me know if this should be moved or point me to where it was discussed earlier.

I am curious about what it means to own a flare gun, whether it is new produced in the states or old produced in another country and also owning a insert from runway sub cal, for the 45 cal?

Are these legal? can you own them and never use? What are the take aways?

http://runwaysubcal.com/

[edgerly779]

The breech of the flare is not designed for chamber pressures created by centerfire cartridges. If you put a sub caliber insert in barrel it will take the pressure and breech blows aprrt in your hand and face as it should. Teach dummies not to create a zip gun.

[bohoki]

The breech of the flare is not designed for chamber pressures created by centerfire cartridges. If you put a sub caliber insert in barrel it will take the pressure and breech blows aprrt in your hand and face as it should. Teach dummies not to create a zip gun.

the orange plastic one would probably survive a 25acp they have a tiny steel plate

[wpage]

Safety glasses and glove recomended...

[RickD427]

You need to be real careful here, for two very different reasons:

1) When you put the sub-caliber conversion into a flare gun, you're creating as personally manufactured firearm. That's legal under federal law, so long as the personally made firearm is in a legal configuration. The manufacturers of these units often include an ATF determination letter in their advertising.

But in California, the personal manufacture of a firearm is significantly restricted by California's "Zip Gun" statute (Penal Code section 33600). Violation of the statute is a felony. California's definition of a "Zip Gun" is really obtuse (refer to Penal Code section 17360). When you parse out all the elements of that definition, a firearm made using one of these inserts is gonna be a "Zip Gun" regardless of what the BATF says.

Another legal issue, unique to California, is that the .410 gauge conversion unit will produce a California-defined "Short Barrelled Shotgun", and another felony, when placed into a flare gun.

2) Edgerly's points about the plastic construction of most flare guns is well taken. Plan on your personally made firearm blowing up in your hand when you first fire it.

The demonstration videos of these devices always seem to be made using very rarely found metal constructed flare guns. Why do you think this is the case?

[bohoki]

You need to be real careful here, for two very different reasons:

1) When you put the sub-caliber conversion into a flare gun, you're creating as personally manufactured firearm. That's legal under federal law, so long as the personally made firearm is in a legal configuration. The manufacturers of these units often include an ATF determination letter in their advertising.

But in California, the personal manufacture of a firearm is significantly restricted by California's "Zip Gun" statute (Penal Code section 33600). Violation of the statute is a felony. California's definition of a "Zip Gun" is really obtuse (refer to Penal Code section 17360). When you parse out all the elements of that definition, a firearm made using one of these inserts is gonna be a "Zip Gun" regardless of what the BATF says.

Another legal issue, unique to California, is that the .410 gauge conversion unit will produce a California-defined "Short Barrelled Shotgun", and another felony, when placed into a flare gun.

2) Edgerly's points about the plastic construction of most flare guns is well taken. Plan on your personally made firearm blowing up in your hand when you first fire it.

The demonstration videos of these devices always seem to be made using very rarely found metal constructed flare guns. Why do you think this is the case?

its not smart also there is the atf rules about smoothbore pistols which are nfa

[M1A Rifleman]

You need to be real careful here, for two very different reasons:

1) When you put the sub-caliber conversion into a flare gun, you're creating as personally manufactured firearm. That's legal under federal law, so long as the personally made firearm is in a legal configuration. The manufacturers of these units often include an ATF determination letter in their advertising.

But in California, the personal manufacture of a firearm is significantly restricted by California's "Zip Gun" statute (Penal Code section 33600). Violation of the statute is a felony. California's definition of a "Zip Gun" is really obtuse (refer to Penal Code section 17360). When you parse out all the elements of that definition, a firearm made using one of these inserts is gonna be a "Zip Gun" regardless of what the BATF says.

Interesting. How do black powder pistol cylinder conversions fit into this? Based on the statement above, the conversion cylinders would be illegal in CA because they would convert a non firearm under CA law into a firearm.

[edgerly779]

Put 10 k of chamber pressure in an olin 12 gauge flare gun with barrel insert and plan on having your girlfriend open you catsup bottles forever. Saw a video of this from afghanistan where a gibroni did that. Did not kill the grunt just blew his hand off. Laughed so hard I coughed my beer up thru my nose.

[RickD427]

Interesting. How do black powder pistol cylinder conversions fit into this? Based on the statement above, the conversion cylinders would be illegal in CA because they would convert a non firearm under CA law into a firearm.

I don't have a lot of experience with black powder stuff. The California laws regarding Black Powder weapons are really weird. When you look at Penal Code sections 16170 and 16520 along with 18 USC 921(a)(16) which is incorporated into PC 16170, it's a bit of a challenge to figure out when a Black powder weapon is, and is not, already a "Firearm" under California law.

I haven't undertaken that effort as of yet.

But if you work from the assumption that the Black Powder weapon is not a California firearm, then the same "Zip Gun" analysis applies.

[dancinzen]

Yea, there are lots of steel flare guns out there, so I WASN'T SILLY ENOUGH TO USE A PLASTIC ONE.

I was more concerned with the legalities of this as there is not a lot of info on it. So stupid that they don't make these laws more clear!

[dancinzen]

Thank you RICKD427 for the explanations. So you would say this is a definite no go?

[edgerly779]

Conversion of non firearm to firearm is a felony very simple. Put a smokeless powder conversion cylinder in black powder firearm go to jail.

[RickD427]

Thank you RICKD427 for the explanations. So you would say this is a definite no go?

I wouldn't go there. Doing time is really hard. Living life with only one hand is probably harder.

[edgerly779]

^^ Makes it very difficult to switch hands while in the shower. (LOL) Just a reference to worst case scenario.

[plumbum]

The percussion revolvers are a replica or antique - the flare gun inserts can be “zip guns” by CA law.