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  • ScottsBad
    Progressives Suck!
    CGN Contributor - Lifetime
    • May 2009
    • 5610

    Home Defense and Auditory Exclusion

    The discussion of the effect of loudness of the weapon relative to self defense seems to recur time and again. Most recently in the discussion of home defense weapons, some argued that a shotgun is not as loud as an AR helping to make the shotgun a preferred HD weapon.

    I've seen so many people argue against the AR as a home defense weapon because of the high decibel levels they generate.

    So, i want to present counter-arguments to this assertion, with facts, about why loudness should be a minor consideration in selection of a home defense (HD) weapon.

    The argument against the consideration of loudness in a life or death self defense situation is suggested by John Lovell who has years of first hand experience in extremely adverse war fighting and LE conditions, indoors and outdoors.

    First, here is a simple statement explaining the effect.

    "Auditory exclusion is part of fight or flight, and means that when you are under high stress the sounds of gunfire or other loud sounds that you should have easily heard are muffled or muted to the point that you don't realize that any excess noise was generated-until someone tells you about it in the aftermath."
    This effect in NOT present during training; where hearing protection must be worn.

    This is scientifically understood. See the References in this Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_exclusion

    More




    Here is John Lovell




    My Conclusion: Sympathetic Nervous System (SNS) response that includes Auditory Exclusion does not preclude some possible damage to your ears. But the likely-hood of ever needing to shoot for HD is very very low, and the amount of damage would probably be relatively small, making the loudness of the weapon a small consideration.
    Last edited by ScottsBad; 02-26-2021, 6:26 PM.
    sigpicC'mon man, shouldn't we ban Democracks from Cal-Guns? Or at least send them to re-education camps.
  • #2
    NapalmCheese
    Calguns Addict
    • Feb 2011
    • 5959

    Loud noises are loud. Loud noises can cause hearing damage. Whether or not you realize the loud noise is loud it can still cause hearing damage. Auditory exclusion might alleviate some of the confusion and disorientation caused by sudden loud noises, but it WILL NOT protect your hearing. Auditory exclusion WILL NOT prevent you from possibly having negative repercussions on being able to effectively hear the environment in the aftermath of a spontaneous gunfight.

    If you know you're going to get into a gunfight, why not wear ear pro?

    If I'm not expecting a gunfight, I'm more worried about surviving the initial encounter than I am worried about retaining my hearing. That being said, if I have the option I'd rather wear ear pro.
    Calguns.net, where everyone responding to your post is a Navy Force Delta Recon 6 Sniperator.

    Comment

    • #3
      003
      Veteran Member
      • Jul 2010
      • 3436

      "Loud noises are loud. Loud noises can cause hearing damage. Whether or not you realize the loud noise is loud it can still cause hearing damage. Auditory exclusion might alleviate some of the confusion and disorientation caused by sudden loud noises, but it WILL NOT protect your hearing. Auditory exclusion WILL NOT prevent you from possibly having negative repercussions on being able to effectively hear the environment in the aftermath of a spontaneous gunfight.

      If you know you're going to get into a gunfight, why not wear ear pro?

      If I'm not expecting a gunfight, I'm more worried about surviving the initial encounter than I am worried about retaining my hearing. That being said, if I have the option I'd rather wear ear pro."


      Well said, beat me to it.

      Comment

      • #4
        ScottsBad
        Progressives Suck!
        CGN Contributor - Lifetime
        • May 2009
        • 5610

        Originally posted by NapalmCheese
        Loud noises are loud. Loud noises can cause hearing damage. Whether or not you realize the loud noise is loud it can still cause hearing damage. Auditory exclusion might alleviate some of the confusion and disorientation caused by sudden loud noises, but it WILL NOT protect your hearing. Auditory exclusion WILL NOT prevent you from possibly having negative repercussions on being able to effectively hear the environment in the aftermath of a spontaneous gunfight.

        If you know you're going to get into a gunfight, why not wear ear pro?

        If I'm not expecting a gunfight, I'm more worried about surviving the initial encounter than I am worried about retaining my hearing. That being said, if I have the option I'd rather wear ear pro.
        In a REAL HD situation, are you really going to fit your ear pro? Really?

        The point is that loudness should be a small consideration, compared to the effectiveness of the weapon.

        Always use what you are most comfortable and/or trained with, but if you are buying your first HD gun, I believe, for most people, the AR will be the best choice.

        I argue for the AR as the best weapon for HD because of its capacity (with freedom week mags), it's size, ergonomics, ammo effectiveness, and ease of reloads. We can debate on those grounds, but loudness should be a very small factor.
        sigpicC'mon man, shouldn't we ban Democracks from Cal-Guns? Or at least send them to re-education camps.

        Comment

        • #5
          Scratch705
          I need a LIFE!!
          • May 2009
          • 12537

          this is why my electronic ear muffs are right next to my nightstand guns.

          allows me to have super human hearing, and protects my hearing at the same time.

          takes no time at all to put on. i have to wear my glasses too when i wake up or else i would literally be shooting at blobs in the dark.
          Originally posted by leelaw
          Because -ohmigosh- they can add their opinions, too?
          Originally posted by SoCalSig1911
          Preppers canceled my order this afternoon because I called them a disgrace... Not ordering from those clowns again.
          Originally posted by PrepperGunShop
          Truthfully, we cancelled your order because of your lack of civility and your threats ... What is a problem is when you threaten my customer service team and make demands instead of being civil. Plain and simple just don't be an a**hole (where you told us to shove it).

          Comment

          • #6
            ScottsBad
            Progressives Suck!
            CGN Contributor - Lifetime
            • May 2009
            • 5610

            Originally posted by 003

            Well said, beat me to it.
            Are you telling the world that you are going to put your hearing protection on when three guys bust into your house? Or even one guy?

            Sounds to me like you guys need to think about getting in touch with earth, before you completely leave orbit.

            Insane.
            sigpicC'mon man, shouldn't we ban Democracks from Cal-Guns? Or at least send them to re-education camps.

            Comment

            • #7
              Citadelgrad87
              I need a LIFE!!
              • Mar 2007
              • 16986

              Agree, many who are in real life or death gunfire do not remember hearing it.

              Also agree, it's STILL damaging your hearing.

              Lastly, agree, I am not effing around with hearing protection (for me) in a home defense situation, but I would try to tell my wife and kid to cover their ears. Added psywar effect.
              Last edited by Citadelgrad87; 09-28-2020, 2:14 PM.
              Originally posted by tony270
              It's easy to be a keyboard warrior, you would melt like wax in front of me, you wouldn't be able to move your lips.
              Originally posted by repubconserv
              Print it out and frame it for all I care
              Originally posted by el chivo
              I don't need to think at all..
              Originally posted by pjsig
              You are talking to someone who already won this lame conversation, not a brick a wall. Too bad you don't realize it.
              XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
              sigpic

              Comment

              • #8
                DRM6000
                CGN Contributor
                • Jan 2006
                • 5992

                Originally posted by ScottsBad
                In a REAL HD situation, are you really going to fit your ear pro? Really?

                The point is that loudness should be a small consideration, compared to the effectiveness of the weapon.

                Always use what you are most comfortable and/or trained with, but if you are buying your first HD gun, I believe, for most people, the AR will be the best choice.

                I argue for the AR as the best weapon for HD because of its capacity (with freedom week mags), it's size, ergonomics, ammo effectiveness, and ease of reloads. We can debate on those grounds, but loudness should be a very small factor.
                I have heard a suggestion to to keep electronic ear pro with your HD rifle. It protects your ears and amplifies sounds to hear the BGs. Sounds good on theory, but in a panic situation, they'll probably not be worn.

                Comment

                • #9
                  ScottsBad
                  Progressives Suck!
                  CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                  • May 2009
                  • 5610

                  Originally posted by Scratch705
                  this is why my electronic ear muffs are right next to my nightstand guns.

                  allows me to have super human hearing, and protects my hearing at the same time.

                  takes no time at all to put on. i have to wear my glasses too when i wake up or else i would literally be shooting at blobs in the dark.
                  You do that. LOL

                  This is why this Country is so screwed up. Nobody lives in the real world.
                  sigpicC'mon man, shouldn't we ban Democracks from Cal-Guns? Or at least send them to re-education camps.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    tabascoz28
                    Veteran Member
                    • Mar 2016
                    • 3364



                    All you need is a .22

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      ScottsBad
                      Progressives Suck!
                      CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                      • May 2009
                      • 5610

                      Originally posted by DRM6000
                      I have heard a suggestion to to keep electronic ear pro with your HD rifle. It protects your ears and amplifies sounds to hear the BGs. Sounds good on theory, but in a panic situation, they'll probably not be worn.
                      Hey, I found someone who still lives on earth! Bravo Sir.

                      I used to believe that I would put hearing protection on, but over the years I realized that I probably wouldn't and that it could well be a detriment making quick decisions under threat.

                      The studies also show that when someone reaches that Sympathetic Nervous System (SNS) response, I'll call it panic stage, that they struggle to do things in order and act more instinctively.
                      sigpicC'mon man, shouldn't we ban Democracks from Cal-Guns? Or at least send them to re-education camps.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        ScottsBad
                        Progressives Suck!
                        CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                        • May 2009
                        • 5610

                        Originally posted by tabascoz28
                        https://youtu.be/TJnEXfD07yc

                        All you need is a .22
                        I love Burr.
                        sigpicC'mon man, shouldn't we ban Democracks from Cal-Guns? Or at least send them to re-education camps.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Scratch705
                          I need a LIFE!!
                          • May 2009
                          • 12537

                          Originally posted by ScottsBad
                          You do that. LOL

                          This is why this Country is so screwed up. Nobody lives in the real world.
                          yes i will. based on your idiotic attitude, you would also complain that i'm taking the time to put on my glasses?

                          so i should visually impair myself against bad guys cause it "just takes too much time"?
                          Originally posted by leelaw
                          Because -ohmigosh- they can add their opinions, too?
                          Originally posted by SoCalSig1911
                          Preppers canceled my order this afternoon because I called them a disgrace... Not ordering from those clowns again.
                          Originally posted by PrepperGunShop
                          Truthfully, we cancelled your order because of your lack of civility and your threats ... What is a problem is when you threaten my customer service team and make demands instead of being civil. Plain and simple just don't be an a**hole (where you told us to shove it).

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            200Apples
                            -DVC- Mojave Lever Crew
                            CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 7217

                            Bill Burr makes a salient point. Prob seen that routine 10 times in recent months. Great comic.

                            I still want to be sure I've actually stopped any threat, however, and therefore I will continue to rely upon the effects of a well-placed .45 cal 230 grain projectile.


                            Meanwhile...

                            The last time I was out in the Mojave, alone, for target practice (yeah, yeah, I know. Take it easy, already) I returned to my firing line after my lunch break wearing my Howard Leight Electronic Ear protection on my head.

                            I drew my Springfield .45 Auto 1911 from my holster, aligned my front sight and squeezed.

                            OMF'NG WHATHEHELLWAZTHAT!?

                            I thought a bomb had gone off, and I dropped vertically straight down, with my hands still in the air (it happened so fast) in a dramatic ducking manuver.

                            Turns out that while I had my ear pro on my head, I did not have them COVERING my ears! D'oh!




                            Point being: Until you hear your .45 uncorked you have no idea.

                            "Loud" is a supreme understatement. And that was in open air, in the middle of the Mojave desert on a windless day...


                            Last edited by 200Apples; 09-28-2020, 2:30 PM.
                            .
                            "Get a proper holster, and go hot. The End." - SplitHoof

                            NRA Lifetime | Avatar courtesy Elon Musk's Twitter User SomthingWicked

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              P5Ret
                              Calguns Addict
                              • Oct 2010
                              • 6400

                              I agree that noise level shouldn't be a determining factor here, and a shotgun more than likely isn't going to make much of a difference when it comes to hearing loss compared to an AR or similar.

                              Since I know someone who was in a fight for his life over his gun on the front seat of his patrol car. Having a pretty good idea how much hearing loss he suffered as a result of the .357 mag round going off inches from his head, I'm not sure the concept of auditory exclusion can be relied on for much help. Not being aware of the noise, is probably not going to help the physical effects. Being alive and half deaf is far better than the alternative though.

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