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FFL won't return my weapon, says it's AW (Resolved correctly 8-6-20)

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  • #16
    MountainLion
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2009
    • 510

    You asked "Do I need an attorney". To answer that question, think about this question: what can the attorney do for you?

    The FFL has possession of the gun, and he has it completely legally: you gave it to him. An attorney can not change that. You can ask the FFL to return the gun to you. Will having that request come on the letterhead of an attorney make the FFL more likely to honor the request? Is there any mechanism you can apply pressure on the FFL? As CAL.BAR already explaining getting a superior court to enjoin the FFL (to return the gun to you and not hand it to law enforcement) will be slow and expensive.

    The FFL is suspecting that a crime is being committed, namely possession or creation of an AW. In particular, if the FFL does not have an AW permit, they might suspect that they are inadvertently committing a crime right now. And given the looks of the gun and presence of a bullet button, that suspicion is not terribly unreasonable: Why would any sane person add a BB to a rifle, other than to make the rifle legal in the old days? But since the registration period for BB-equipped rifles has passed, at this point if the rifle were an AW with a BB, it either is now a registered AW (in which case the FFL can't sell it, unless he has an AW permit and is selling it outside the state), or it is not registered, meaning it is an illegal AW. Now, from what you have explained we know that this line of reasoning is faulty, but it is still perfectly reasonable.

    The FFL has every right to contact law enforcement if they think a crime is being committed, in particular in order to protect themselves if they are worried that they are themselves in trouble. And law enforcement will do what they do; they will either look at the gun and say "not an AW, perfectly legal" and hand it back to the FFL, or they will say "we'll check more into this" and take the rifle as evidence. I think threatening the FFL with an attorney will, if anything, make it ore likely that they will ask law enforcement for assistance, to cover their behind. And threatening the police with an attorney is unlikely to accomplish anything, other than waste money.

    I would wait until the FFL has dealt with law enforcement. At that point, if they still have the rifle, they will probably be happy to return it to you. And if is taken by law enforcement, you will know which agency has it, and you can begin the usual process (LEGR and all) of having it returned to you. And if they determine that it really is an AW, then there is still ample time to get an attorney.
    meow

    Comment

    • #17
      deckhandmike
      Calguns Addict
      • Jan 2011
      • 8325

      When this gets sorted out, I’ll buy it. I’m local but where not using roosters lol. First defense firearms in Los Osos is a much better FFL.

      Wait a minute, I think I know the OP. Small world.
      Last edited by deckhandmike; 07-29-2020, 10:15 AM.

      Comment

      • #18
        jamie404
        Member
        • Jun 2020
        • 253

        Originally posted by edgerly779
        ^^^ HE IS SELLING NOT BUYING IT. What good does using CC do.
        Good point, I missed that.

        Comment

        • #19
          SkyHawk
          I need a LIFE!!
          • Sep 2012
          • 23513

          Roosters in Templeton, CA. FFL Jim Mulhall
          Last edited by SkyHawk; 07-29-2020, 3:41 PM.
          Click here for my iTrader Feedback thread: https://www.calguns.net/forum/market...r-feedback-100

          Comment

          • #20
            Jwalt
            Senior Member
            • Jul 2017
            • 551

            Does it still have the flash hider, or am I incorrect and that device is somehow considered a muzzle brake?

            Comment

            • #21
              deckhandmike
              Calguns Addict
              • Jan 2011
              • 8325

              Originally posted by AregularGuy
              I'm sure you know this but if it is featureless it doesn't need a fixed mag, but can have one, bullet button, or even a regular mag release. You can pretty much set up magazine controls any way you like if featureless.

              OP, It might be worth cross posting in FFL forum. Also might be worth spending a bit to have a firearms attorney draft a letter with quoted sections of penal code, then get rifle sent elsewhere. Sounds like the FFL is a real Richard.

              Comment

              • #22
                caliguy93
                Senior Member
                • Jun 2016
                • 1512

                Hiring an attorney to send a demand letter may do the trick and should only cost you a few hundred. You can do small claims once it’s destroyed, but otherwise a temporary injunction is what you need and it’s expensive

                Comment

                • #23
                  Timthetwin
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2012
                  • 668

                  A good FFL would point out any missing parts for featureless, sell them to you, and help you make your gun legal.
                  Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.-Groucho Marx

                  sigpic

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    Jwalt
                    Senior Member
                    • Jul 2017
                    • 551

                    Is it listed by name in any of the Appendix's?

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      AregularGuy
                      Veteran Member
                      • Jan 2013
                      • 2792

                      Originally posted by MountainLion
                      You asked "Do I need an attorney". To answer that question, think about this question: what can the attorney do for you?

                      The FFL has possession of the gun, and he has it completely legally: you gave it to him. An attorney can not change that. You can ask the FFL to return the gun to you. Will having that request come on the letterhead of an attorney make the FFL more likely to honor the request? Is there any mechanism you can apply pressure on the FFL? As CAL.BAR already explaining getting a superior court to enjoin the FFL (to return the gun to you and not hand it to law enforcement) will be slow and expensive.

                      The FFL is suspecting that a crime is being committed, namely possession or creation of an AW. In particular, if the FFL does not have an AW permit, they might suspect that they are inadvertently committing a crime right now. And given the looks of the gun and presence of a bullet button, that suspicion is not terribly unreasonable: Why would any sane person add a BB to a rifle, other than to make the rifle legal in the old days? But since the registration period for BB-equipped rifles has passed, at this point if the rifle were an AW with a BB, it either is now a registered AW (in which case the FFL can't sell it, unless he has an AW permit and is selling it outside the state), or it is not registered, meaning it is an illegal AW. Now, from what you have explained we know that this line of reasoning is faulty, but it is still perfectly reasonable.

                      The FFL has every right to contact law enforcement if they think a crime is being committed, in particular in order to protect themselves if they are worried that they are themselves in trouble. And law enforcement will do what they do; they will either look at the gun and say "not an AW, perfectly legal" and hand it back to the FFL, or they will say "we'll check more into this" and take the rifle as evidence. I think threatening the FFL with an attorney will, if anything, make it ore likely that they will ask law enforcement for assistance, to cover their behind. And threatening the police with an attorney is unlikely to accomplish anything, other than waste money.

                      I would wait until the FFL has dealt with law enforcement. At that point, if they still have the rifle, they will probably be happy to return it to you. And if is taken by law enforcement, you will know which agency has it, and you can begin the usual process (LEGR and all) of having it returned to you. And if they determine that it really is an AW, then there is still ample time to get an attorney.

                      All of this is easy to say when it's not your property on the line. This is an FFL and former law enforcement. You think some random LEO is going to come in and inspect the rifle and give a thumbs up? How many LEO's are even aware that we can posses high cap magazines let alone the subtle nuances of featureless rifles, etc?

                      The point of a letter from an attorney, not too aggressively worded, would be to point out the regulations on AW vs other means of making the rifle legal. This may be more convincing that Joe walking and trying to convince the FFL its legal.
                      All posts dedicated to the memory of Stronzo Bestiale

                      "You want my sister but now scam my Glocks too?
                      How about my sister? what can she do now? Still virgin and need Glcok."

                      ---ARegularGuy

                      NRA Patron Member

                      Comment

                      • #26
                        Frisco3Gun
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2014
                        • 709

                        Ask FFL to cite where in the penal code this is an AW. Grip wrap + featureless otherwise = not an AW, even with a BB
                        God may have made men, but Samuel Colt made them equal.

                        Send me pics of your: Colt Detective Special, AMT Hardballer, pre-64 Winchester Model 70. I'm looking for them.

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          Milsurp1
                          Veteran Member
                          • Aug 2016
                          • 3091

                          You could give the FFL a copy of the CRPA flowchart and ask him why he thinks a BB is an AW feature.

                          Comment

                          • #28
                            sonofeugene
                            Veteran Member
                            • Oct 2013
                            • 4386

                            My understanding is that the BB can be removed if the rest of the gun is featureless. But that it's not a requirement to remove it.
                            Let us not pray to be sheltered from dangers but to be fearless when facing them. - Rabindranath Tagore

                            A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. It makes the hand bleed that uses it. - Rabindranath Tagore

                            Talent hits a target no one else can hit. Genius hits a target no one else can see. - Arthur Schopenhaur

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                            • #29
                              Spaffo
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2013
                              • 1300

                              Out the FFL.

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                high_revs
                                CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                                CGN Contributor
                                • Feb 2006
                                • 7625

                                i thought if it had a bb and registered as a AW, you cannot sell it?

                                unless the bb is there even if featureless since a bb today reflects (hopefully) registered AW yes?

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