Question: A unique/nuanced (??) teaching situation?

[rodralig]

I wouldn't sweat it. Odds are, he's not going to face a home invader anyway. After he buys whatever he thinks he'll need, his perspective will change and he'll buy several more guns. Did any of us stop at one gun?

Well, that is indeed a very insightful response...!!! Definitely indeed...!!!

He's probably all talk, but as a friend, you should hang in there to provide guidance if he actually is ready to buy and train, at some point.

*nod*



I did - he got to try several shotguns and pistols in various calibers.

Or until he begins on developing his fundamentals, and what he likes may change...

As far as I know, there are no circumstances, outside of LE weapons specifically and only used for LL, where a firearm would be considered anything other than deadly force.
That should be the foundation of your argument. Since firing a gun is always considered deadly force, legally speaking, a rubber should would be considered deadly force.

...

If that's true, then the next building block on that foundation would be to figure out which type of round will be more effective in stopping a lethal threat as quickly as possible.

Hhhhmmm... This got me thinking.



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[AregularGuy]

I always scratch my head when people tell new owners to take classes, as in, "First take some lessons then we can talk". What if the legislators compelled a class requirement before gun ownership? We'd be up in arms. Why do we police ourselves in such a manner? Either teach him or lead him to be self taught. Many of us are self taught or taught informally by family or friends. Who is to say who or what training qualifies you to own a weapon?

[rodralig]

I always scratch my head when people tell new owners to take classes, as in, "First take some lessons then we can talk". What if the legislators compelled a class requirement before gun ownership? We'd be up in arms. Why do we police ourselves in such a manner? Either teach him or lead him to be self taught. Many of us are self taught or taught informally by family or friends. Who is to say who or what training qualifies you to own a weapon?

Because I am not qualified to teach him.




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[Preston-CLB]

Because I am not qualified to teach him.

Why not? You already know how to safely operate a weapon. You could easily teach him the basics and then he could attend more formal training at a later time.

I recently took a friend out to a local spot while on a camping/photography trip. One afternoon in camp, we did about 2 hours of basic handgun safety and operation with a revolver, and pistol. This included stance, grip, reload, and dry fire. He had never used a handgun.

Later that day, we went out to a spot and did live fire. He did very well for a first-time shooter. I was honestly impressed.

I found that it wasn't really tough to teach the fundamentals so that we could have a safe, productive, and fun time. In my experience, I find that most folks who are novices at whatever skill, learn better one-on-one in an environment that is not filled with distractions.

Now, I do not know if my friend will buy a handgun, but he at least has a good foundation to build upon if he chooses to. He's also a 2A supporter, and I encouraged him to join the NRA and CRPA. I am not sure if he will, but at least the seed has been planted.
-p

[Mustard]

I did offer him several opportunities... He says he is NOT yet ready and/or doesn't want to, even for a 2-day at FS. Even a small match setting in Burro (the "No Name Pistol Club") wasn't to his liking... Obviously, I didn't want to impose on him, so I didn't push further... Well, maybe things will change if he does try out Artemis.
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Fair enough. I know for me, joining FS, starting competition, and even posting regularly on CG were not insignificant mental hurdles to get over. I dunno how you feel about the guy, so not sure if you'd want to travel with him to FS for two days, hahaha....

I always scratch my head when people tell new owners to take classes, as in, "First take some lessons then we can talk". What if the legislators compelled a class requirement before gun ownership? We'd be up in arms. Why do we police ourselves in such a manner? Either teach him or lead him to be self taught. Many of us are self taught or taught informally by family or friends. Who is to say who or what training qualifies you to own a weapon?

I honestly feel lessons/classes prior to ownership (or as a first-time owner) isn't a bad idea. Gotta learn the basics and ingrain safety somehow, and being taught by a professional is a good way to get there. But being mandated by gun grabbers to get trained by a "certified" trainer first is the bad part. They'll make the cert meaninglessly easy so when accidents/crime happens they'll still go with guns = bad, or make the cert onerously difficult so no one can pass (a la ammo bg checks)

[Jeepergeo]

Your narrative suggests you think he is some backwoods dolt for considering a revolver and then YOU write about his preconceived notions? Jeeze.

[hambam105]

About those thin walls...

Why hasn't anyone mentioned that putting the shots where they belong reduce the risk of collateral damage?


Rodralig "Because I am not qualified to teach him." Winner Winner Chicken Dinner

[rodralig]

And show him this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFBAcz16GvU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeSifTdEATo

Whoa!?!?! I'll definitely show him this...

Fair enough. I know for me, joining FS, starting competition, and even posting regularly on CG were not insignificant mental hurdles to get over. I dunno how you feel about the guy, so not sure if you'd want to travel with him to FS for two days, hahaha....

Seriously - I did offer him that I'd accompany him (and another colleague) for an "offsite" at Front Sight. I added a twist that instead of camping out in Joshua Tree NP, why not enjoy FS... Answer was a resounding "No."


It might be what was previously posted -

He's probably all talk, but as a friend, you should hang in there to provide guidance if he actually is ready to buy and train, at some point.

Which... Would see... At the very least, am hoping that he tries out Artemis - which would pique his interest, and get the ball rolling... *crossing fingers*

I feel that right now - he is still on the edge on ownership...

Why not? You already know how to safely operate a weapon. You could easily teach him the basics and then he could attend more formal training at a later time.

I can teach my Wife... I taught my kid last summer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwN6sHUykPU)... But, probably not best to teach another adult. I don't know - I feel that there is this dynamic between me and my colleague such I shouldn't be teaching him further in firearms. I just can't find the right words to explain this... (But it be said - I did run him through the 4 Safety Rules with a blue gun, some loading/unloading, racking the slide, etc. for his first range session).


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[pacrat]

Because I am not qualified to teach him.

Of course you are. The recent concept that one must be somehow "qualified" to do something is illogical. It's not brain surgery.

I'm 70 yrs old, I predate this recent concept and reject it as "hogwash". Was my father "qualified" to teach me to shoot [safely]? Was my grandfather "qualified" to teach my father the same skills and responsibilities? Was my great grand father "qualified" to teach my grandfather?

All the way back to the founding of this nation built on God n Guns?

If this person is a "friend", and they show interest in shooting. Don't think of it as "teaching".

Consider it "sharing" of acquired skills and knowledge. Just like Dad did.

[Mustard]

What is this dynamic between you and your colleague such that you don't think you should teach him anymore? He weirding you out or something?

I usually shoot alone for "me time". Besides competition or specific training events i am going to or supporting, i don't shoot with people.

[HellnBack]

@ rodralig

"(yeah, he is from the country that calls the 1911 as "the 45" and the AR15, the "Armalite")"

Not to Hi jack your thread Bro but I can relate to the above. My Grandfather calls the 1911 "Porty Pive" and my uncles call the M16 Armalite and the M4 Baby Armalite.

[L84CABO]

Because I am not qualified to teach him.




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Fathers have been teaching their sons to shoot since our country was formed. And the bulk of them probably did not have any formal training or teaching experience.

I'm the first one to suggest to new shooters that they should seek additional training from qualified instructors. But assuming you're not an idiot, you are probably more than capable of teaching a new shooter the basics...

1) Gun Safety/4 Rules
2) Basic mechanics/workings of the pistol
3) Grip
4) Stance
5) Sight alignment
6) Trigger press

[Mustard]

Fathers have been teaching their sons to shoot since our country was formed. And the bulk of them probably did not have any formal training or teaching experience.

I'm the first one to suggest to new shooters that they should seek additional training from qualified instructors. But assuming you're not an idiot, you are probably more than capable of teaching a new shooter the basics...

1) Gun Safety/4 Rules
2) Basic mechanics/workings of the pistol
3) Grip
4) Stance
5) Sight alignment
6) Trigger press

Agreed. Any man/woman/child what considers themselves a gun enthusiast should be able to teach these things.

[rodralig]

@ rodralig

"(yeah, he is from the country that calls the 1911 as "the 45" and the AR15, the "Armalite")"

Not to Hi jack your thread Bro but I can relate to the above. My Grandfather calls the 1911 "Porty Pive" and my uncles call the M16 Armalite and the M4 Baby Armalite.

Yep!!!

At first he wanted to get a "Porty Pive," but then I gave him a quick run-down of the nuances of the 1911, ie., the 45ACP, light SA trigger and the thumb safety. He then got second thoughts...

1) Gun Safety/4 Rules
2) Basic mechanics/workings of the pistol
3) Grip
4) Stance
5) Sight alignment
6) Trigger press

Agreed. Any man/woman/child what considers themselves a gun enthusiast should be able to teach these things.

I already taught him these... For his first live fire session...

... ... (But it be said - I did run him through the 4 Safety Rules with a blue gun, some loading/unloading, racking the slide, etc. for his first range session).
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What is this dynamic between you and your colleague such that you don't think you should teach him anymore? He weirding you out or something?

Like I have said, I just can't find the right words to describe it... But let me see - it's like he is half-hearted (not really serious, or maybe this is just in passing)... He "can't empty the cup," ie., I would like to explain in detail, but, I prefer not going into a lengthy discourse because of his preconceived notions. Or sometimes like the Kung Fu student, "... teach me your secrets Master," (short cuts?).

I already gave him the first step, and I truly believe that the next step would be to get qualified/professional instruction. ... which is NOT me.



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[DB>]

The reason you're feeling "unqualified" is because your friend keeps coming around with off the wall ideas and (probably?) thinks he's "educated". Lots of misinformation and FUD out there, with a fair mix of good bad and awful plus a smidge of downright dangerous "information" tossed in. Thanks Internet.

You're trying to help him out, but it's a lot more work sorting through what he's "researched"... You want to offer "good advice", but have to navigate what he's coming to you with, and it's frustrating sorting out a mix of good, bad, and incorrect "information" - plus it's tough "disagreeing" with an accountant <wink>.

Stick to the basics, and let him "research" - he will most likely make some "wrong" conclusions/decisions, but that's how most people learn! At some point he's got to put his "money where his mouth is", and buy something to call his own.

I've seen people (myself included, guilty as charged!) buying a cheap Phoenix .22 just to own "something". If it means they go out and shoot, it's better than "nothing", and hopefully will lead to "bigger and better". I suspect many purchases like this end up in a sock drawer, but I still have fun with the Phoenix and have a couple more that I got super cheap... great for kids or new shooters!

From there I thought a 7 shot semi-auto would be sufficient, then a friends relative had 4 armed guys bash through their door... 10 rounds with several extra mags started to sound pretty weak. Revolver with 5 shots? No thanks (an accountant should be able to sort out that that would require nearly 100% accurate shooting vs. 4 adversaries intent on harming the family, and that math is no bueno!). I have a relative that thinks a revolver would be easier than a semi-auto for his wife with weak hands and arthritis. She can manipulate a Sig P238 just fine, so that was my recommendation... though still a bit low on round count (7+1 ext mag). I still hear "keep an eye out for a good deal on a revolver", so I feel your "pain".

I've contemplated a shotgun, just because... there are a wide range of loads, so it should be possible to find something suitable for HD, but maneuvering a long gun in a typical house presents a challenge IMO, so... handguns in various calibers and a couple 22LR bullpups make sense to me, and are lots of fun at the range!

Keep in mind that a firearm is a "personal" decision, and it may just take a while for your friend to figure out what he wants to invest in, and whatever it is, it probably won't be the only "investment". The "on roster" 9mm I started with wasn't a good shooter (for me), but the off roster Ruger P95 I found used on CG for pretty cheap shoots one ragged hole for me... I've since collected an "eclectic" mix of guns that meet my criteria, and sold the ones that didn't.


You probably want to keep your advice simple = the criterion for a HD firearm is simple - must be rock solid reliable (goes "bang" every time), AND has to be comfortable to shoot reasonably accurately, for most or all family members. Let your friend sort out what that means for himself!