Question: A unique/nuanced (??) teaching situation?

[rodralig]

Okay, looking for some advice here...

A colleague of mine got to experience firearms after a few range visits (indoor pistol range, and an outdoor skeet shooting range).

Now, he tells me he wants to get a firearm for home-defense (he lives in Orange County). He first tells me that he wants a shotgun, which, of course I recommended against since he and his family (husband & wife and 2 young girls) live in a connected townhouse. ... He didn't pursue the idea any further, and I thought he had given up on it.

Well, a few weeks later (Friday), he said he is now thinking of getting a handgun. Seeing how serious he is, I told him to get his FSC. I also recommended that he get a small easy access safe (like the Fort Knox PB4), for now. I lent him my copy of the USCCA's Complete Firearms and Family Defense Guide for 2019 and recommending him taking lessons, as well. I suggested checking out the Artemis Defense Institute based on his location. My karate sensei, who is also into firearms, has good feedback on the Artemis Defense Institute.

Nothing happens for a few weeks, and he comes back to me saying that he wants to get a REVOLVER. Okay.... He plans on loading the first FOUR (4) with non-lethal dummy/rubber rounds as deterrent, and the remaining would be live ammo.

I just shook my head there and there... All I could muster saying was that at an average room size of 7-yards, a serious attacker would be on to him before he even gets to his 3rd round. I added that at 7-yards, he will miss and is going to miss! .... I just didn't want go further in explaining the nuances lest he becomes confused (yeah, he is from the country that calls the 1911 as "the 45" and the AR15, the "Armalite"). Since we were extremely busy at work, I ended the small talk with "You've been influenced much by movies (one round is enough to take own an attacker), etc. First, take some lessons, then we can talk... .

I definitely want him to get into firearms, etc. but wouldn't know how to take this further in a smooth manner without being overbearing and confusing him... Yeah, being an accountant and IT person, he can be pretty anal!

The challenge here is breaking through his preconceived notions of firearms. Thoughts???

On the other hand, I am quite sure it will take a few more weeks before he takes action on anything.

Thanks in advanced!


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[bhp1410]

Just show him some “active self defense” YouTube channel videos.. he will see how “real” it gets within seconds and the need for lethal ammo on the first shot.

[hermosabeach]

Why did you say no to shotguns?

[hermosabeach]

If he and his family are good people, be supportive.

I have worked with people who were II. Intentionally incompetent

They purchased a “gun” and a box of ammo and felt ready for home defense.


They shot horrible and refused to learn how to clear malfunctions.


As we kept shooting- every 6-8 months, they realized they wanted to be able to hit smaller things- like a soda can target and a golf ball target.


As they shot more, they had a malfunction. When they looked at me with a puzzled expression - I yelled- the fight is still on- fix it- fix it -fix it- get back in the fight

I laughed and showed them step by step a safe way to clear the common malfunction.




Most people learn at different rates-

Be supportive

And it is harder for a kid to sneak a mossberg pump to school than a Glock.

It’s easier to hit in a home with a 12 gauge and low recoil buck than with a 1911 for most people

[Mustard]

Most people learn at different rates-

Be supportive

This. Whether you like it or not, you're in the position to introduce someone to our sport/RKBA. Do it right.

You've mentioned training classes which are well and good; get him a Front Sight 2 day handgun certificate. Maybe try introducing him to some local competitive pistol shoots. Either one of those will probably break his preconceived notions about firearms and honestly give him a wake up call on the real world

[Jimi Jah]

Why did you say no to shotguns?

Townhome with thin walls. A frangible .45 will do nicely there.

[rodralig]

Just show him some “active self defense” YouTube channel videos.. he will see how “real” it gets within seconds and the need for lethal ammo on the first shot.

Good idea! I know exactly which channel.

Why did you say no to shotguns?

He lives in a small connected townhouse (when I mean connected, two residences are "connected" by a single wall).

In a single-family residence, with a yard, etc. I would recommend a shotgun.

If he and his family are good people, be supportive.

They are good people, and I absolutely want to be supportive. Hence me asking here how to go about this in the right manner.

This. Whether you like it or not, you're in the position to introduce someone to our sport/RKBA. Do it right.

No pressure here!

Seriously, as mentioned - that is the reason I posted here because I would like to proceed in the "right" manner.

You've mentioned training classes which are well and good; get him a Front Sight 2 day handgun certificate. Maybe try introducing him to some local competitive pistol shoots. Either one of those will probably break his preconceived notions about firearms and honestly give him a wake up call on the real world

I did offer him several opportunities... He says he is NOT yet ready and/or doesn't want to, even for a 2-day at FS. Even a small match setting in Burro (the "No Name Pistol Club") wasn't to his liking... Obviously, I didn't want to impose on him, so I didn't push further... Well, maybe things will change if he does try out Artemis.



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[sealocan]

Even experts like us once knew very little or nothing about firearms.... a long long time ago.

I actually like the choice of a revolver for someone who is new to firearms and I wouldn't look down at a friend if they chose to make the first round snake shot as long as every one of the other cylinder in the revolver is loaded with premium self-defense rounds.

I would just try to slowly explain that is very possible to make whatever live thing, whether it is animal or human, might just become more angry and dangerous if you start shooting with things that only sting.



Also.
I was also curious to see how much "home defense rubber bullets" (not to be confused with the plastic, rubber or wax bullets used sometimes for fast draw or indoor training) are currently going for and a quick search led me to find these ones...And of course are overpriced for what you are getting...

https://www.conceptsinammunition.com/Pistol_Products/38cal.htm

[Wordupmybrotha]

I wouldn't sweat it. Odds are, he's not going to face a home invader anyway. After he buys whatever he thinks he'll need, his perspective will change and he'll buy several more guns. Did any of us stop at one gun?

[sonofeugene]

Just show him some “active self defense” YouTube channel videos.. he will see how “real” it gets within seconds and the need for lethal ammo on the first shot.

And show him this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFBAcz16GvU

After watching it, I think he may switch back to semi-automatic pistol.

Another one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeSifTdEATo

[Spaffo]

He's probably all talk, but as a friend, you should hang in there to provide guidance if he actually is ready to buy and train, at some point.

[DNA]

Get a shotgun. Let him have his first less leathal round followed by #4 buck shells.

Dan

[Ora Serrata]

Groupon has some Artemis deals pretty cheap. They start them off with simunition and focus on safety, etc.

Why don’t you take him to a range to try some of your different handguns and/or rent some to see what he likes and dislikes. I always start off people with a .22 and work up from there. For revolvers a 4” is better to start off a newbie since snubbies recoil more and often have smaller harder to handle grips. He won’t know what he likes best until he tries a bunch of stuff.

Shotguns aren’t bad first firearms but the reality of most people in big cities is they won’t get as much practice as they would with a handgun. The firearm shouldn’t just be for self defence but for taking out to have fun shooting. In OC we’re pretty limited on places to shoot shotgun (only slugs, only certain days/times, etc). Much easier to grab a handgun and go shoot when you feel like it.

[mikeyr]

my wife has the same mentality as your friend.

The first round in her .357 is a shot shell and then 5 full house loads. Her theory is that the first round being a shot shell, she will have a little more leeway in hitting the target and will be able to take more time on the second round.

I am not sure its a good idea, i agree with it in theory that the first round will likely shock in the intruder and give her time to aim for the second round...But bad guys sure can pull a trigger awfully fast. Can't talk her out of it, its the way her father told her to prepare and be ready, but also not sure its a bad or good idea.

[rugershooter]

As far as I know, there are no circumstances, outside of LE weapons specifically and only used for LL, where a firearm would be considered anything other than deadly force.
That should be the foundation of your argument. Since firing a gun is always considered deadly force, legally speaking, a rubber should would be considered deadly force. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me with a legal citation or caselaw. If that's true, then the next building block on that foundation would be to figure out which type of round will be more effective in stopping a lethal threat as quickly as possible. That's where things like ASP videos and live fire under time pressure can come in.
A PCC is also another good consideration. Low recoil and blast, cheap ammo, etc. can allow for him to be a more effective shooter and can be more enjoyable to use.