LAPD Shooting - Hostage Dead

[CBR_rider]

From what I've gathered is tools and tactics need department approval. You're right on the mindset thing but you're dealing with government agencies and unions.

Also has alot to do with liability. Go to an awesome training school that isn't POST approved, use your training on duty, and because it isn't approved you may have to explain in court why you believed your particular course of action was necessary as opposed to a POST/agency approved course where a POST certified instructor/agency trainer will come in and testify about the finer details of whatever tactic you used. Some private corporations may send someone to testify on the stand for you; but that isn't a guarantee.

With that being said, I get and would agree that learning to shoot properly probably is going to expose an officer to far less liability than doing no training on their own time would (case in point right here). I also agree (and despite what lazy LEO's may say) that many in the LEO field understand that you will be spending some of your own time/coin to better yourself in regards to career advancement and skills. I think it is unfair and poor practice to demand anyone in any particular field only attend critical job skills training on their own time/on their own dime for the duration of their career.

Government entities (including some agencies themselves) and the public at large need to demand and provide funding for more quality training for LEO's; especially in the realm of perishable skills such as stress induced UOF (to include shooting) training. Not more "domestic violence update" courses or "anti-harassment/bias/whatever" courses. This may not mean agencies necessarily need more cash; it just means they need to (IMO) prioritize its use better in some cases.

[Deedle]

I also agree (and despite what lazy LEO's may say) that many in the LEO field understand that you will be spending some of your own time/coin to better yourself in regards to career advancement and skills. I think it is unfair and poor practice to demand anyone in any particular field only attend critical job skills training on their own time/on their own dime for the duration of their career.

In my field it's a mix of both, but I don't think waiting for an employer to set up 100% of the training required to maintain professional competence is a good way to go.

I don't see why (in principle) the training being self funded would require it to be unsanctioned or unapproved.

[gaberaynes]

Never had Leo training but curious do they teach officers to call out positions, clear shot etc.. like they do in the military?

[CBR_rider]

In my field it's a mix of both, but I don't think waiting for an employer to set up 100% of the training required to maintain professional competence is a good way to go.

I don't see why (in principle) the training being self funded would require it to be unsanctioned or unapproved.

Oh I agree with you; the opposite of my employer scenario is also bad IMO: employee's who wait around to attend career advancing/important skill building training because the employer doesn't pay for it are doing themselves and their team mates a disservice (to say the least).

LEO's can often attend POST certified courses (or other "quality" courses) on their own time/dime; but that can be difficult to do: If I work four days a week and can't take the three days off to attend a four day course that mostly falls on my work days I can't go no matter how much I am willing to burn my own time/pay my own way. Even if a LEO is willing to burn all their vacation time on training (another poor idea for most IMO), attending two shooting courses spaced over 12 months isn't optimal perishable skills training. It is way better than 0 three or four day shooting courses, but more time throughout the year would be ideal. Not too mention that by using all of ones time in shooting courses it leaves out the opportunity to attend other force options type training, range instructor courses, career building courses, etc.

As you can see, I am a big proponent of quality training in the LEO world and I really believe it is not something taken seriously enough by the public at large, many LEO's, certainly alot of brass, local government officials, and of course our overlords in Sacramento.

[CBR_rider]

Never had Leo training but curious do they teach officers to call out positions, clear shot etc.. like they do in the military?

Depends on the course you take... Not in many "basic" courses (I am fairly certain that is not required in basic POST firearms related courses).

Some of that certainly gets trained in more specialized units; but a big issues is many times when responding to hot (or even "routine") calls many of the responding LEO's may not be from the same "team" or even agency. I have responded to calls that turned into OIS's/"big deals" and we had three or four agencies on scene. Or when working a busy area my fill unit may be from my agency but a different area/shift.

Obviously if an agency really drills certain tactics across the board it's own LEO's should be able to better respond to incidents as a team than an agency that doesn't do that. But there will always be people who are more/less advanced in shooting skills at any agency and they will never work together as well as LEO's who train/work together regularly (even with the same difference in skill level). This is why some guys/girls really like to work solo (because they don't feel like they have to babysit/deal with someone else on a hot call) or with a set partner. I personally have a few guys (and one girl) that I prefer to work closely/partner with; we have worked together in various assignments over the years, know how each other operates/the training we have, know the other person isn't an idiot, and we know we have each other's backs.

[Ron-Solo]

Shooting skills among LEOs is as varied as the individual. I knew a guy that could cut a playing card (turned sideways) in half shooting a bone stock Smith and Wesson Model 15 double action at 25 yards. I’ve also seen recruits shoot 30 rounds at a silhouette target and not hit it once.

I shot “Distinguished Expert” while still in the academy. That requires a score of 290 out of 300 at 25 yards, five times. The course of fire was 6 rounds slow fire, 12 rounds at a bullseye in 40 seconds, and 12 rounds at a silhouette in 30 seconds. This was with a 4” revolver and shooting single action was not permitted.

My entire academy class shot “Expert” which was 275 out of 300. Not all classes were so motivated. I never qualified less than Expert after the academy until retirement.

We later went to a combat style course where you got points for a hit, and lost points for any miss. Shooting a non bad guy resulted in an immediate failure.

At one time, we had to qualify monthly, then quarterly, then once every trimester. Shooting accuracy decreased with the infrequency of qualifying. It was all budget driven. With 9000 sworn, plus non sworn armed security, the costs of qualifying is huge.

[OCEquestrian]

Oh I agree with you; the opposite of my employer scenario is also bad IMO: employee's who wait around to attend career advancing/important skill building training because the employer doesn't pay for it are doing themselves and their team mates a disservice (to say the least).

LEO's can often attend POST certified courses (or other "quality" courses) on their own time/dime; but that can be difficult to do: If I work four days a week and can't take the three days off to attend a four day course that mostly falls on my work days I can't go no matter how much I am willing to burn my own time/pay my own way. Even if a LEO is willing to burn all their vacation time on training (another poor idea for most IMO), attending two shooting courses spaced over 12 months isn't optimal perishable skills training. It is way better than 0 three or four day shooting courses, but more time throughout the year would be ideal. Not too mention that by using all of ones time in shooting courses it leaves out the opportunity to attend other force options type training, range instructor courses, career building courses, etc.

As you can see, I am a big proponent of quality training in the LEO world and I really believe it is not something taken seriously enough by the public at large, many LEO's, certainly alot of brass, local government officials, and of course our overlords in Sacramento.

^^^^ Excellent summation of the situation.

We are now discussing the differences between "being an employee with a job" and "being a professional"

All you do for a "job" is show up for work on time and take whatever training is offed by the employer. A "professional" is someone driven internally to excellence in performance of his /her tasks and who constantly seeks out any opportunity to enhance their skill set / capability's to improve job performance and add to their employment value with ever increasing job related capabilities.

In the private sector (financial, medical, management etc..), professionals as they develop their careers, almost always have to make huge commitments of personal time and money in pursuit of adding value to themselves and their ability to deliver excellence on the job.

A true "professional" is ALWAYS working to improve his performance and proactively seeks out every opportunity to improve. An employee with a "job" waits to be told what he needs to do by the employer and expects the employer to provide it. Someone with a "profession" never stops thinking about their job and how to do it better. A person with a "job" only thinks about it while they are on the clock.

The civil service "employee" mentality held by a vast majority of LEO's (and I have had contact with MANY) and a "professional" mentality is a true oxymoron.

A professional would have taken one shot on that suspect and he / she would not have missed.

[SAD338]

To be fair, you will find this divide between 'just a job' and a 'profession' in many other fields. Even the military is this way. I believe this is what Hooyah was alluding to earlier when he pointed out the difference between qual'ed and trained.

There are those who will consider the 'minimum standard' as trained when it really is just the minimum. I'd say this is the majority of people in any job.

The Pareto Principle is not just a concept.

[RandyD]

On the topic of advanced marksmanship training, a factor to consider is that a situation where a bad guy has to be taken out to save a hostage is a very rare situation. I read that there are about one million law enforcement officers in the United States, to train a million people to be able to successfully take such a shot would be an enormous undertaking and the costs would be through the roof.

[OCEquestrian]

On the topic of advanced marksmanship training, a factor to consider is that a situation where a bad guy has to be taken out to save a hostage is a very rare situation. I read that there are about one million law enforcement officers in the United States, to train a million people to be able to successfully take such a shot would be an enormous undertaking and the costs would be through the roof.

True.. but every LEO who considers themselves a "professional" and takes their oath of office seriously, to protect and serve the public and their fellow officers, should be working towards that goal every day, with or without department paid training / support. To not be doing so is a total moral and ethical failure in my opinion and such LEO's should be disarmed and relegated to desk duty where their caviler attitude about their life and death responsibilities cant hurt anyone.

Surgeons are constantly working to improve their skill and knowledge, regardless of hospital requirements and financial support. Would you want a brain surgeon who ten years after med school has not improved his knowledge, skill and technique operating on your wife or children? If he did and he screwed up would it be malpractice?

[eta34]

[OCEquestrian]

In many departments, mine included, I am not allowed to train with my duty weapon outside of the PD range. I am excellent with a rifle and average with the handgun. I want to attend additional training, but I can’t use the weapon I carry on duty. It’s insane.

Pro tip.. BUY the same handgun personally, set it up exactly as your duty gun and TRAIN....

You will most likely get a LE discount on the the gun purchase. The gun and all training expenses, including training classes will be tax deductible

[1911su16b870]

The LAPD Van Nuys OIS is rich with training material, Tactical Communication, Officer Team Work, Action Plan formulation-communication, Less Lethal Bean Bag Deployment and Use, Cover Officer(s), Priority of Fire, Immediate Defense of Life, Priority of Life, Marksmanship, All Four of Cooper's (also POST LD35) Firearms Laws, etc.

IMO many LE agencies will be using this for training purposes.

[Jwalt]

There's a whole lot of space between "Murder" and "Beyond any reproach".

That's the only productive thing I have to say.

[FatOnCoke]

Did we see the same video? Or were you just reading?
The police gave that guy so much time and distance for him to get the hostage. The city will pay for this.... big time..