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  • #31
    LynnJr
    Calguns Addict
    • Jan 2013
    • 7958

    Originally posted by L84CABO
    First and foremost gun owners are not responsible for this problem and it isn't our obligation to solve it in order to keep our rights. We are, however, concerned citizens and parents so we're happy to discuss and do what we can. But our rights are non negotiable and not up for subjugation because of what some evil idiots do.

    With that said, this is an enormous and deeply complex problem. But guns are damn sure not the reason that this nut job went in and shot up that school. What are the reasons?

    1) Decades worth of decay of our family structures and values

    2) Significant rise in single parent families and particularly that many boys are growing up without fathers.

    3) Whatever is left of our families, they are doing everything they can to insulate their children from all forms of stress, anxiety, hard work, failure, etc. Kids are being taught that all they have to do to succeed is to show up and collect their trophy. They are poorly equipped to deal with the harsh realities that life throws at them.

    4) Increase in technology. Use of technology (devices) have replaced our relationships. We're more connected now than we ever have been but we're more alone and more isolated than we ever have been. We have no sense of tribe, no sense of community, no investment in those communities, and very poor support systems. This isn't just technology related but it's certainly a big part of it.

    5) The antidepressant drugs we're giving our children

    6) Our schools are trying to raise our little boys like they do our little girls. We need a lot of discussion around what our boys need to grow up emotionally strong and healthy and how that differs from what our girls need.

    7) Lack of quality mental health care

    Each one of the above issues is ENORMOUS and complex. And it didn't get to it's current state overnight. It's taken decades to get where we are today so it's going to take a lot of time to clean up this mess. And I don't have any easy solutions on how to do that. These are deeply complex socio an cultural problems that need to be fixed.

    What will help? Honestly, the easiest thing to do (and it's still a monumental task) and the thing that will help the most is hardening our schools. There are four facets to this...

    1) Increase the physical security of schools. Strong fences, gates and doors. Badged identification for all students. Doors remain locked at all times and you need a badge to move through sections. Outer doors needs to be stout and locked while kids are on campus. Ideally main doors should be guarded but if there are too many then there should at least be a camera on them. The only way onto campus when school is in session is through the office...but that remains locked down too. You have to be buzzed in. All classroom doors should be capable of being barricaded. Various sections of the school can be locked down electronically like some hospitals have. Every school is different and will likely have it's own set of unique challenges but I think you get the idea here. This should be priority one for all administrators and their teams. NOTHING is more important. Most everything else should be dropped until the school is secure.

    2) High quality trained armed guards. I'm not talking about rent-a-cops. I'm talking about highly skilled individuals that are capable of dealing with something like this. They are the first line of defense. They are the hunters. When things go south, they converge on the threat and try to eliminate it.

    3) Arm and train any teacher who wants it. They are the last line of defense. They don't go looking for the shooter. They stay with their students, hunkered down in their classrooms. The kids are behind the teacher. The teacher is between the kids and the door. Gun drawn at the low ready, pointed toward the door. Also, every teacher, administrator and the hunters carry a radio. EVERYONE.

    4) Trauma kits in every class room. Train every teacher, administrator and kid from fourth grade on up basic gunshot trauma first aid...how to apply a tourniquet, compression bandages, chest seals, etc.

    The idea here is to make it like your home security. The goal is to make your home the least attractive one to break into so that the burglar goes elsewhere. Hopefully shooters bypass our schools in favor of easier targets...like a theater. As messed up as that still is.

    Best post on CalGuns since I have been a member.
    I would only add that our police and teachers have there hands tied.
    Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
    Southwest Regional Director
    Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
    www.unlimitedrange.org
    Not a commercial business.
    URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!

    Comment

    • #32
      smle-man
      I need a LIFE!!
      • Jan 2007
      • 10606

      My wife was an elementary grade teacher for many years. Not too long before she retired from the profession the school was put on lockdown. The only thing my wife could do was close the blinds on the windows, push desks against the door (no lock) and huddle the children away from the door. She said she would have given anything to have her Ruger Mk2 target pistol at that moment. She was a proponent of arming teachers. She said the utter feeling of helplessness was overwhelming.

      Comment

      • #33
        Messerschmitts
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2013
        • 882

        The real reason is complicated and not "neat". In the 1950s, we had more guns per capita and fewer gun laws than we do today, but no school shootings of the kind and frequency that we do today. Kids carried guns to school for shooting clubs. What changed? Not guns, society changed.

        Kids are inundated with violence on TV, video games, movies, music (all entertainment) media since birth. They swim in it like fish in water. They become desensitized to violence, violence is normalized as a way to solve problems. Back in the 1950s, movies and TV were squeaky clean, "Leave it to Beaver" style sanitized TV. Even news networks "censored" egregious reporting of violence. Kids had nowhere to get the idea to do a mass shooting. Kids had fathers in the house back then. Today the divorce rate is 50%, higher for minorities.

        However, unlike some members, I DO NOT think we should go back to the 1950s. We should accept that this is the price for freedom. Do you want freedom or safety? This is the price of free speech and a free society. We are now allowed to watch gritty TV if we chose. Married couples no longer have to be depicted as sleeping in separate beds on TV. Women who are battered by their abusive, alcoholic husbands now have the freedom and means to divorce her husband and start new on her own.

        In addition, mental health law is a pendulum, it has swung too far to the side of patient rights. In the 1950s, people could be signed into an "insane asylum" on the word of their husband, they would be locked up and the key thrown away. Patients were subject to gross human rights violations, forced medications, forced shock therapy, etc. Patients rights groups were rightfully horrified, and lobbied for change, which resulted in the de-institutionalization of America's mentally ill. These mentally ill now have tremendous civil rights protections. It is now very difficult to hold them against their will for more than 3 days unless they are an immediate danger to self or others. It now requires complex court orders to force medications in only the most dire cases. However the mentally ill who in the past would be in an "asylum" now roam the streets as homeless people talking to themselves, off their meds.

        I don't think it was "better" back then. Some things were better, some things were worse. Nothing is perfect. I personally like the freedoms we have today. But one of the side effects is things like the occasional mass shooting.

        If we truly want to tackle mass shootings, we would have to change society, and change entertainment and media and return to a world of "Leave it to Beaver", change back to locking too many people with mental illness up for the rest of their lives, and possibly subject them to abuse and civil rights violations. But we can't go back, we can't turn back the clock, and I don't think we really want to. This is the world now, I'm okay with it, but liberals aren't and they think gun control is the magic answer. They are deluded. My anti-gun friend basically agreed with me that there are now more mass shootings primarily due to changes in society and breakdown of the family, as well as de-instutitionalization of mental illness. However, her anti-gun logic was that it's impossible to change society, so the easiest way would be to restrict guns because at least those same violent people wouldn't have the means to kill so many. I told her all the reasons why I don't think it would do anything other than inconvenience lawful gun owners, but even if it would work, I'd rather live in dangerous freedom.

        One change we could do, is to pull the pendulum on mental illness back just a tiny bit, make it a tiny bit easier to hold someone psychiatrically if family are concerned, make it just little bit easier for court-mandated medications for those with severe psychotic mental illness such as schizophrenia.
        Last edited by Messerschmitts; 02-26-2018, 12:11 PM.

        Comment

        • #34
          therealnickb
          King- Lifetime
          CGN Contributor - Lifetime
          • Oct 2011
          • 8957

          Originally posted by USMCM16A2
          Nick,



          Riddle me this. Anything is something, but if anything means something anything has to be made-up of something. Does this mean anything? A2
          Yep. Both anything and something are more than nothing.

          Comment

          • #35
            ScottyXbones
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2010
            • 940

            1. New tax on movie and news production, use the money to provide a free safe for every household with guns.

            2. Establish a free database anyone can go to and do a free background check on a person before selling them a gun.

            3. Require a class on fundamentals, laws and mindset to carry guns outside the home.

            4. Remove all other gun laws.

            5. World peace established.



            Btw last time the country just did a knee-jerk reaction and "did something" we ended up with the TSA

            Comment

            • #36
              Jimi Jah
              I need a LIFE!!
              • Jan 2014
              • 19312

              "Reasonable restrictions" from Heller is all you need to know. Those that determine what "reasonable" is will rule the day.

              Comment

              • #37
                wannabefree
                Member
                • Nov 2017
                • 194

                Originally posted by ARDude
                Restrictions on firearms=NO

                Restrictions on people who can obtain firearms=YES to a degree.
                Mental illness/criminal reporting needs to be fixed.

                Age for purchasing a firearm should be the same as voting/military service.

                If people think that an 18 year old is too young for a firearm, then raise the age of voting/military to 21.
                I would have no problem raising the voting and military age to 21 and then limiting gun purchases to 21 as well. But Dems want all the 18 to 20 year olds they can get because they vote like sheep.

                Comment

                • #38
                  ARDude
                  Veteran Member
                  • May 2006
                  • 2723

                  Originally posted by wannabefree
                  I would have no problem raising the voting and military age to 21 and then limiting gun purchases to 21 as well. But Dems want all the 18 to 20 year olds they can get because they vote like sheep.
                  Yeah, but then if you have kids, they will be your responsibility until they become "legal" at age 21.

                  I believe it should stay at 18, and they should be allowed to vote/enter the military and be able to purchase a firearm.

                  Think about it...how many mass shooters were there between the age of 18-21? Most were over 21 with a few under 18.
                  But, the most notable ones, only a few, were within that age bracket.
                  Real-life Girls

                  Comment

                  • #39
                    Califpatriot
                    Senior Member
                    • Jul 2016
                    • 2438

                    "Something" would be to drastically increase the number of good guys with guns.
                    In case it wasn't obvious, nothing I write here should be interpreted as legal advice.

                    Comment

                    • #40
                      ACfixer
                      Calguns Addict
                      • Feb 2012
                      • 6099

                      Allow God back into our schools, that would be something.
                      Buy made in USA whenever possible.

                      Comment

                      • #41
                        RandyD
                        Calguns Addict
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 6673

                        Originally posted by Messerschmitts
                        The real reason is complicated and not "neat". In the 1950s, we had more guns per capita and fewer gun laws than we do today, but no school shootings of the kind and frequency that we do today. Kids carried guns to school for shooting clubs. What changed? Not guns, society changed.

                        Kids are inundated with violence on TV, video games, movies, music (all entertainment) media since birth. They swim in it like fish in water. They become desensitized to violence, violence is normalized as a way to solve problems. Back in the 1950s, movies and TV were squeaky clean, "Leave it to Beaver" style sanitized TV. Even news networks "censored" egregious reporting of violence. Kids had nowhere to get the idea to do a mass shooting. Kids had fathers in the house back then. Today the divorce rate is 50%, higher for minorities.

                        However, unlike some members, I DO NOT think we should go back to the 1950s. We should accept that this is the price for freedom. Do you want freedom or safety? This is the price of free speech and a free society. We are now allowed to watch gritty TV if we chose. Married couples no longer have to be depicted as sleeping in separate beds on TV. Women who are battered by their abusive, alcoholic husbands now have the freedom and means to divorce her husband and start new on her own.

                        In addition, mental health law is a pendulum, it has swung too far to the side of patient rights. In the 1950s, people could be signed into an "insane asylum" on the word of their husband, they would be locked up and the key thrown away. Patients were subject to gross human rights violations, forced medications, forced shock therapy, etc. Patients rights groups were rightfully horrified, and lobbied for change, which resulted in the de-institutionalization of America's mentally ill. These mentally ill now have tremendous civil rights protections. It is now very difficult to hold them against their will for more than 3 days unless they are an immediate danger to self or others. It now requires complex court orders to force medications in only the most dire cases. However the mentally ill who in the past would be in an "asylum" now roam the streets as homeless people talking to themselves, off their meds.

                        I don't think it was "better" back then. Some things were better, some things were worse. Nothing is perfect. I personally like the freedoms we have today. But one of the side effects is things like the occasional mass shooting.

                        If we truly want to tackle mass shootings, we would have to change society, and change entertainment and media and return to a world of "Leave it to Beaver", change back to locking too many people with mental illness up for the rest of their lives, and possibly subject them to abuse and civil rights violations. But we can't go back, we can't turn back the clock, and I don't think we really want to. This is the world now, I'm okay with it, but liberals aren't and they think gun control is the magic answer. They are deluded. My anti-gun friend basically agreed with me that there are now more mass shootings primarily due to changes in society and breakdown of the family, as well as de-instutitionalization of mental illness. However, her anti-gun logic was that it's impossible to change society, so the easiest way would be to restrict guns because at least those same violent people wouldn't have the means to kill so many. I told her all the reasons why I don't think it would do anything other than inconvenience lawful gun owners, but even if it would work, I'd rather live in dangerous freedom.

                        One change we could do, is to pull the pendulum on mental illness back just a tiny bit, make it a tiny bit easier to hold someone psychiatrically if family are concerned, make it just little bit easier for court-mandated medications for those with severe psychotic mental illness such as schizophrenia.
                        I don't believe it is possible to recreate a society like what we had in the 50s, but it is possible for us to raise our standards, morals, ethics and respect for others. I believe America is experiencing and understanding that there is a detrimental effect when we lower the expectations in these areas. The criminal activity of the democrats over the last couple of decades is astounding and now it is out in the open and we are experiencing the detrimental effects.
                        sigpic

                        Comment

                        • #42
                          Jimi Jah
                          I need a LIFE!!
                          • Jan 2014
                          • 19312

                          This ship has sailed, modern Rome.

                          Like in Rome, life was cheap. Violence was a way of life.

                          Comment

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