Bear Attacks Stopped with Handguns

[ja308]

I enjoyed reading the bear stories! Always perks me to look at new ammo choices!

[floogy]

What I take from this is; pistols are a very good defense against bear attacks; regardless of what caliber you carry FMJ is better because it penetrates; 44 mag rules the day.

I think .44 mag had the most just because it's the most popular with people in the back country. 9mm and .40 were just as successful with fewer uses. 357 was the only one that failed to stop an attack, though that doesn't seem to be relevant since the shot placement was poor to none. So just like anything else, shot placement is key.

Unfamiliar with Dixie Slugs, but, in any event, I'd go with Brenneke slugs. The soft Forster/Foster-style slugs widely available locally would not penetrate.

Brenneke are what the Norwegian Gov't requires in your 12 gauge, and/or minimum caliber .308 Winchester if rifle, for the polar bear country all over the island of Svalbard.

As for a handgun to save your life in a North American bear attack? A nice, big Ruger Bisley Blackhawk chambered in .480 Ruger or .44 Mag or .45 Colt, using .45 Colt +P. Either cartridge should be loaded with minimum 335 grain WLN.

Then again, Rich Pasquarello killed a big New Mexico black bear with his GP100stoked with 158 grain jacketed soft points in .357 Magnum...

Dixie slugs are from a small company that designed them specifically for AK guides. They have a high sectional density compared to the foster slugs. Dixie and brenneke slugs are much better for that type of animal.

[MJB]

Good shot!

While a picture can be worth a thousand words, please tell us the caliber and load (most importantly, bullet weight and type) your friend was using that day.

41 mag I don't remember the bullet

[OlderThanDirt]

I used to do a lot of work in Alaska. The guides we used to cover our backs when we worked all carried handguns chambered in .454 Casull or .480 Ruger. If they carried a long gun the calibers were all over the board, but almost always 300 Win mag at a minimum.

[Jimi Jah]

People forget that California brown bears were the largest of the species. One was taken down locally here in Valley Center around 1900. It weighed in at 2600 pounds, sized like a buffalo!

Local indian tribes were terrified of them. They roamed the coastal regions, not the mountains. They would typically hunt in groups of up to 20 bears. Local tribes had no defense against them.

It was the rifle that equalized the playing field.

[200Apples]

Cheeziss, Jimi... that's incredible.

Thank you, codypaint. Thank you, floogy. Thank you, MJB. I like to think your friend was using a 230 grain Keith. I appreciate your replies.

I cannot for the life of me (or perhaps the life of me is why) explain my fascination with bear threads/what *handgun* for bear threads. Sure, one must occasionally wade through some bs, but beyond that there is much experience posted within them and as ja308 just said, "Always perks me to look at new ammo choices!".

However, until recently I have preferred, at a minimum, a woods gun in .41 Magnum, and to load heavy-for-caliber hardcast on dangerous game. My latest woods carry is a toss up between a 4-5/8" .41 Mag Old Model Blackhawk and a 4-5/8" New Model .44 Special flat top. I prefer the .44 Special because I can use heavier bullets, i.e. 250 and 260 grain lead, but feel I don't necessarily need Magnum velocities (speed in excess of 1100 fps).

The trend with my position, though, as I learn more, is moving towards really big bores; stuff beginning at .460 if I'm going to be in grizz territory. Hence the .480 Ruger, since it's a tad less punishment to shoot than .454 Casull, .460 and 500 S&W loads... so my next big single-action acquisition/search will be a/for a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk in .480.

I hope to never stop learning, and I hope to live to a ripe old age. I'm 2/3rds there already!

[NapalmCheese]

While hunting in Wyoming I met a rancher who was charged by a grizzly. He carried a 10mm Glock. Upon being charged he shot the bear once, the bear having been hit (they found minimal blood spore) ran straight past the guy and into the woods. He called fish and game who then came out to investigate. He was chastised for not first using bear spray. They never found the bear and he didn't get mauled. He still carries a 10mm Glock, and a can of bear spray.

[ZirconJohn]

Bear Attacks Stopped with Handguns

Good post

Where I hunt rattlesnake - I see bear tracks (video below) all the time. I hunt rattlers mostly in mid morning and late afternoon to dusk and so I've never seen the bear that frequents my rattlesnake trails.

I carry Glock 36 (45ACP) and I have wondered if that round will be sufficient. NOT that I think I'll ever need to fire upon a bear, NA Black Bear in my area, but still you just never know!

If I ever see a bear, I will be more apt to reach for my video camera before reaching for my gun. I know I'll be okay videoing a bear on a bluff charge ... I want to see that ...! It will be exciting ...!

Now I also see a lot of mountain lion tracks up there too ... I don't ... DO NOT trust mountain lion ...! - That's what I carry for. I'd like to video one too, but ... I don't trust mountain lion.

Here's video of my bear tracks ...,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItWvSI39MPE

[smle-man]

While hunting in Wyoming I met a rancher who was charged by a grizzly. He carried a 10mm Glock. Upon being charged he shot the bear once, the bear having been hit (they found minimal blood spore) ran straight past the guy and into the woods. He called fish and game who then came out to investigate. He was chastised for not first using bear spray. They never found the bear and he didn't get mauled. He still carries a 10mm Glock, and a can of bear spray.

I've wondered how effective my SW 1006 with FMJ bullets would be in this situation. Apparently not too effective.

[tundraboomer]

He was chastised for not first using bear spray.

Bear spray is a condiment to most Alaskan bears. Useless.

[floogy]

Cheeziss, Jimi... that's incredible.

Thank you, codypaint. Thank you, floogy. Thank you, MJB. I like to think your friend was using a 230 grain Keith. I appreciate your replies.

I cannot for the life of me (or perhaps the life of me is why) explain my fascination with bear threads/what *handgun* for bear threads. Sure, one must occasionally wade through some bs, but beyond that there is much experience posted within them and as ja308 just said, "Always perks me to look at new ammo choices!".

However, until recently I have preferred, at a minimum, a woods gun in .41 Magnum, and to load heavy-for-caliber hardcast on dangerous game. My latest woods carry is a toss up between a 4-5/8" .41 Mag Old Model Blackhawk and a 4-5/8" New Model .44 Special flat top. I prefer the .44 Special because I can use heavier bullets, i.e. 250 and 260 grain lead, but feel I don't necessarily need Magnum velocities (speed in excess of 1100 fps).

The trend with my position, though, as I learn more, is moving towards really big bores; stuff beginning at .460 if I'm going to be in grizz territory. Hence the .480 Ruger, since it's a tad less punishment to shoot than .454 Casull, .460 and 500 S&W loads... so my next big single-action acquisition/search will be a/for a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk in .480.

I hope to never stop learning, and I hope to live to a ripe old age. I'm 2/3rds there already!

I think I'd go with .480 Ruger for defensive use. If for both defense and hunting, probably .460 S&W. I wish I had the luxury of needing one of those. But here in CA, without being a frequent visitor to the more wild locations in North America it would just be an expensive range toy.

While hunting in Wyoming I met a rancher who was charged by a grizzly. He carried a 10mm Glock. Upon being charged he shot the bear once, the bear having been hit (they found minimal blood spore) ran straight past the guy and into the woods. He called fish and game who then came out to investigate. He was chastised for not first using bear spray. They never found the bear and he didn't get mauled. He still carries a 10mm Glock, and a can of bear spray.

So he can spray the bear after he shoots it next time?

Good post

Where I hunt rattlesnake - I see bear tracks (video below) all the time. I hunt rattlers mostly in mid morning and late afternoon to dusk and so I've never seen the bear that frequents my rattlesnake trails.

I carry Glock 36 (45ACP) and I have wondered if that round will be sufficient. NOT that I think I'll ever need to fire upon a bear, NA Black Bear in my area, but still you just never know!

If I ever see a bear, I will be more apt to reach for my video camera before reaching for my gun. I know I'll be okay videoing a bear on a bluff charge ... I want to see that ...! It will be exciting ...!

Now I also see a lot of mountain lion tracks up there too ... I don't ... DO NOT trust mountain lion ...! - That's what I carry for. I'd like to video one too, but ... I don't trust mountain lion.

Here's video of my bear tracks ...,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItWvSI39MPE

I would say that for CA black bears, .45+P hard cast would be sufficient. Even FMJ that is hotter than average, like Underwood. Pretty cool to see tracks like that. I saw a wolf track in Northern MN one time that was as big as my hand. Never it though.

[ja308]

Elmer Keith wrote lots about bullets and hunting.
Keith was also responsible for a number of bullet designs still popular today, and collectively called "Keith style" bullets. These bullets were based on the semiwadcutter design, but using a wider than normal front surface, and convex sides. These changes increased the volume of the bullet outside the case, thus allowing more room inside the case, needed for large loads of slower burning powders (see internal ballistics). These bullets remain popular for both target shooting and hunting. When shooting paper targets, they cut a relatively clean hole in the target, yet provide more case volume and a better ballistic coefficient than a flat front wadcutter. When used for hunting, the heavy bullets provide excellent penetration; they are often used on dangerous game, for which more reliable penetration is required than is possible with expanding hollow point or soft point bullets.


Keith-Style SWC
Originally Keith specified a meplat that was 65% of the bullet caliber, but later increased it to a 70% meplat. The other distinguishing characteristics of a "Keith-style" SWC are a double radius ogive, beveled crimp groove, three equal width driving bands, wide square bottomed grease groove, and a plain base with sharp corners. The wide forward driving band helps keep the bullet aligned as it jumps across the cylinder gap. Because of the three wide equal width driving bands, the total bearing surf.

He developed a 300 grn slug at about 1200 fps . What say you 200 apples on such a load for big brown bears ?

[NapalmCheese]

I've wondered how effective my SW 1006 with FMJ bullets would be in this situation. Apparently not too effective.

Well, he didn't get mauled by the bear so apparently it was effective. Especially considering the above linked article which also seems to think that 'effective' means not getting mauled as opposed to immediately incapacitating the bear.

The fact remains, if you shoot a bear with a 200 grain hard cast slug from a 10mm in the lungs, it's not going to immediately stop what it's doing and keel over. If you don't hit the CNS all you're doing is trying to use pain to coerce the bear into leaving you alone.

The rancher I spoke with has no idea where he shot the bear, and he only got one shot off before the bear passed him by. Given the shot presentation you have with a charging bear it's likely he shot it in the ham, leg, or some other non-vital place.

I don't often carry a sidearm while hunting, but I'll carry a 10mm in grizz country if I know I'll be dressing and dragging game by myself. If I'm not carrying a rifle I carry bear spray and a 10mm. The bear spray is to act as a deterrent if applicable (i.e. wind not coming at me) and the 10mm is a last ditch effort to not be eaten assuming the spray (and other tactics) don't work.

IMO as long as the handgun you carry has sufficient penetration to get through a bear skull and/or into the vitals through a shoulder it's as effective as anything else that isn't a rifle or shotgun.

[200Apples]

[Keith] developed a 300 grn slug at about 1200 fps . What say you on such a load for big brown bears ?

That'd be a good handgun load almost anywhere in the lower 48.

For brown bear, though, the kind that can be confused with a Grizz, I'd want something heavier (thanks to recent work by 21st Century handgunners), although shot placement can be the real issue for a quicker stop.

I have an Old Model Super Blackhawk, and some 300 grain lead flat points... I haven't loaded any of those, yet. I'm on a .44 Special jag, and finding the sweet spot just below Magnum-level ballistics. Skeeter Skelton liked 7.5 grains of Unique under a 250 grain Keith semiwadcutter for 950-ish fps. I'd like to work up to a 250 grain Keith at 1000 fps.

My hunting experience is very limited (I punch mostly paper, steel and improvised targets), but I do follow what handgun hunters of dangerous game like to use. They use handgun loads with slugs pressed into their brass the size of which you might find in codypaint's .45-70... and I did spend last night on calguns.

And I'm not a distance hunter, either. I like to work up close; +/- 100 yards. My single actions are backup guns for .41 and .44 Magnum lever carbine loads, or a .308 Ruger Scout rifle.

It is because of Keith's influence, and Skeeter Skelton, John Taffin, Brian Pearce, et al, that I'm currently studying the virtues of the .44 Special loaded medium-well. I've just acquired another New Model Ruger flat top in .44 Special, and this is where my attention lies at the moment.

Like floogy, if I were to spend more time in the territory of Alaskan bear, the .480 Ruger loaded heavy-for-caliber would be my choice. That's with what little I might know.

[XCC_RIDER]

Something I saw once on a campground info board.
Thought it was interesting...