Gun muzzling during stagecoach "holdup"

[Ponderosa2]

I've never quite understood the need some people have to mischaracterize what someone else clearly says. I wonder how many business owners would want and encourage customer feedback about their product vs not wanting to know what the customers think? Can't a business owner decide for him or herself if the feedback they get from customers on their product is relevant or useful to their business? Here's a great article about the difference between feedback and complaining, there's a world of difference.

http://coachingforleaders.com/feedback-vs-criticism/

And how do you "force" your opinions on others, simply by stating them? If that's true, didn't you just "force" your opinions and beliefs on others in your last post? I've never met a business owner who did not value customer feedback on their product if the comments were given in a helpful and positive manner. And since I was the only one on the phone with the owner, I am the only person that can accurately characterize the tone and nature of the conversation. It was positive dialogue, a helpful tone, solution oriented, the owner stated that he was pleased that I had passed the information on to him, other customers had given him similar feedback in the past and the owner, as a fellow shooter, understood and he felt it was important to try to correct it. He then thanked me with sincerity for reaching out to him. It's hard for me to understand how that exchange hurt our country. And I don't mean to "force" my opinion on anyone by writing this post, just a little feedback.

No, didn't "force" your opinion on anyone by writing the above post, but it was very condescending. Stating your opinion is also not "forcing," so no, I did not "force" my opinion. You "force" your opinion on others when things are changed because of your opinion for others who may not have your same opinion. And as for the bit about hurting the country, give me a break.

[oakdalecurtis]

Ponderosa, I bet if we ever met we'd have a lot of common interests and might actually find things to like about each other over a beer, so I'm not going to get in a pissing match with a fellow shooter. I was just responding to the words and language you chose to mischaracterize my post, "instead of forcing opinions and beliefs on others, our county would be in way better shape". It seemed such an odd and hyperbolic way to view positive desired feedback on a business's product. You can have the last word if you'd like as I have said all I need to about your comments.

[dieselpower]

I was taught from day-1 and pointing my cap gun or rubber band "rifle" at one of my friends or family was grounds for the belt.

The only exception was a water pistol.

why was a water pistol ok but a cap gun was not?

I was taught to treat all firearms as if they were loaded.

I was taught there is a difference between toys and firearms.

I was taught not to hurt others, which is why I didnt shoot people with anything that could hurt.

I was taught if you couldn't tell if some thing was real or a toy, treat it like it was real.

We and everyone I knew had guns everywhere in their homes. When you actually grow up with firearms as tools and not toys or ego pieces, you have a different take on their proper use.

Half the problem here is the OP has a blurred line of toy and firearm.

If children under my care had made those comments I would have taken the time to explain toys, real guns, real danger and pretend danger. The OP has just re-enforced poor firearm handling without knowing it.

In Basic Training, the first day at the range the DI pointed to this list of Safety Rules on the wall and asked us, "Which rule on that wall will get you killed?" Everyone was silent. After a long time of typical DI banter, we found out what gets people killed is this, and I will bold the troubling part of the rule;
Treat all firearms as if they are loaded.

I take on my DI's mindset on this when I Instruct others. All firearms are loaded. Just like the most dangerious knife is a dull knife, every gun you own needs to be loaded 100% of the time.

When you train to pretend, your subconscious mind knows you are fooling it. That conflict then turns into a false sense of security which is why you hear, "I thought it was unloaded" after many NDs.

Part of removing the "pretend" in your mind is to remove "as if" from your training. That included pretending toys are real and rewarding / awarding that thought process in the ones you instruct.

OP's grandkids, his rules, not for us to say if he was right or wrong, but he asked, we answered.

[russ69]

Never done force on force firearms training, have you? Paintball? How are you supposed to get "hits" if a gun never gets pointed at anyone?

Force on force training. I assume that's military training? That is what they signed up for, a necessary risk but that was not the subject of this thread. Painball? Have at it. What we/I was talking about is using real firearms in a reenactment scenario, totally different.

[oakdalecurtis]

Dieselpower, I agree with everything you said, except please understand that the bandit was in fact using an obviously real gun, not a toy in the slightest? Does that matter?

[Lonestargrizzly]

Im savin up for one of those class 3 pop tart guns.
Heard it shoots sprinkles.

[SomeGuy75]

Sorry, but complaining about an actor using a toy gun in a show is something I would expect a liberal tree-hugging Starbucks's drinking yoga pants wearing Prius driving gun-fearing Hillary voting soccer mom to do. There is gun safety and then there is just common sense...which does not seem to be all that common these days.
My vote: Man-card probation for 30 days.

[71MUSTY]

Make it a permanently inoperable prop and there is no problem with pointing at people.

OP already stated they had made it a permanently inoperable prop.

I was taught from day-1 and pointing my cap gun or rubber band "rifle" at one of my friends or family was grounds for the belt.

The only exception was a water pistol.

How sad.

I grew up playing army, building our own rubberband guns and having a blast. 10 to 20 boys running around the neighborhood shooting each other with them.

Only rule was don't shoot your sister.



My kids grew up having nurf wars. My boy's (now adults) still give each other nurf guns for xmas and try to ambush each other. They enjoy paintball and airsoft battles (with proper equipment).


In all these years with all these people the only injuries were blisters, splinters and thorns.

Father was a LEO. I owned a bb gun at 8 (learned gun safety before I could use it) and a 22 rifle at 12. Shot 22 pistols in competition at 16.

We knew the difference between real, play and theater.

[SomeGuy75]

How sad.

I grew up playing army, building our own rubberband guns and having a blast. 10 to 20 boys running around the neighborhood shooting each other with them.

Only rule was don't shoot your sister.



My kids grew up having nurf wars. My boy's (now adults) still give each other nurf guns for xmas and try to ambush each other. They enjoy paintball and airsoft battles (with proper equipment).


In all these years with all these people the only injuries were blisters, splinters and thorns.

EXACTLY. Several of the kids in my neighborhood will come over and have nerf gun battles with my boys. I have even participated in some with them. There have been some epic battles fought in my front yard. I once got ambushed by two boys that were hiding in the bed of my truck and lit me up as I walked by lol. (The best part is having them run around and pick up all the darts so I don't have to, and I give the kid who brings in the most darts a buck lol) Kids need to be kids, and they need adults to teach them the difference between gun safety, playtime and common sense. I refuse to be part of the continuing pussification of the next generation.
Lighten up Francis.

[oakdalecurtis]

Someguy75, I hope you shoot more accurately than you read. I never complained to anyone, just offered some constructive positive feedback, there's a world of difference between the two. And the bandit was using a REAL GUN, close enough to our faces that we could see the rifling in the barrel. I play nerf guns and paintball with my grandsons, and we all have no problem distinguishing harmless play with toy guns and only applying the 3 Prime Directive Gun Safety Rules to REAL GUNS. Some posts here say that I should have told my grandsons that "even though the bandit used a REAL GUN, unchecked by us to confirm if unloaded, bandit's finger on the trigger and muzzle pointed at our faces, since the holdup was make-believe and acting, we can disregard the 3 prime gun handling safety rules." Here's the problem with that approach. Some time they may go to a friends house, parents aren't home, and their buddy comes into the room with their dad's handgun he found in dad's closet. He says to my grandsons "let's play cops and robbers, make believe, you know? I'll be the cop with the gun and chase you guys around the house." My grandsons think back to grandpa's stagecoach lesson and think "well, grandpa said we don't need to worry about the 3 gun safety rules if we're only using the gun in make believe acting, so let's play!" When one of them ends up getting shot, I would suggest that their learning and logic was faultless, but my teaching them to apply conditional utilization of the 3 gun safety rules (REAL GUNS) was unforgivably flawed.

[Lonestargrizzly]

let's petition to make all non-functioning guns clear plastic.

[71MUSTY]

Here's the problem with that approach. Some time they may go to a friends house, parents aren't home, and their buddy comes into the room with their dad's handgun he found in dad's closet. He says to my grandsons "let's play cops and robbers, make believe, you know? I'll be the cop with the gun and chase you guys around the house."

My children were taught how to tell the difference between a real gun and a fake gun. They were also tough what to do with a real gen, Including, not playing with them.

Are you one of those parents who ask the neighbor's if they have gun's and if they say yes, you don't let your kid's play there?

[IVC]

The bad guy had a realistic engraved western revolver.
...
The owner also said he had heard that from others and had talked with the 'bandit" about it, but the bad guy forgets sometimes and uses his pistol like a finger to point at people in the coach. (The gun was also made nonfunctioning )

And the bandit was using a REAL GUN, close enough to our faces that we could see the rifling in the barrel.

OP already stated they had made it a permanently inoperable prop.

The way I read it is that it looked like a real gun and it was a real gun, with the owner stating it was "nonfunctioning" (a euphemism for "unloaded?") and only AFTER the OP made the call.

If the bandit had a Nerf gun or a pop tart shaped gun, or the OP called to *complain* (not merely to provide feedback), then by all means I'd say the OP went too far and deserves the flaming. From what I gathered, including later posts by the OP, he is not only teaching his grandkids proper safety, but also how to properly raise concerns.

Let's say that the OP lets it slide when a real gun muzzles his family. What is the excuse to ignore such a fundamental safety violation? Saying "it's a prop" is not an option because they don't know whether it is and all signs point to it being a real gun. Saying "don't worry, it's unloaded" is, well, Darwin award category. Saying "don't worry, they know what they're doing" would be silly, especially if the production was set up by a CalGuns member...

[IVC]

Sorry, but complaining about an actor using a toy gun in a show is something I would expect a liberal tree-hugging Starbucks's drinking yoga pants wearing Prius driving gun-fearing Hillary voting soccer mom to do.

Me too.

However, it's not how it went down. You're wrong on two counts: "complaining" and "toy gun."

[readysetgo]

You guys are too much.