Israeli Draw for Condition 3

[tsnoforn]

Ohhh ohhh, I can shed some light on this.

1. Handguns are some of the most carried and least used weapons since WW1. Getting to it super fast is not really always that necessary. So everyone here is right; yes, it is not efficient. Yes, the Israelis actually do this and the Israelis are not necessarily the kings of CQB... I would probs give those honors to the SAS, who also preach hesitation and target ID... but carry locked and cocked.

2. For real... I know why the Israelis do this. When Israel was a young nation they were short both high speed low drag pistoleros (see point 1.. not really important) and pistols. They got what they got and what they got was a hodgepodge. So, the only way to safely train new pistol soldiers was "be safe, don't shoot yourself and for gods sake don't run around with a round in the chamber, you'll shoot yourself or someone else. See point 1 again.... this methodology continues to work. So why change tradition? Thus, the Israeli commando draw myth is born. Fact of the matter, Israeli soldiers are mostly citizen soldiers and strolling around locked and cocked is unsafe unless you have the training and consistent practice of years of training.


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[tsnoforn]

Probably saves excited people from shooting their nuts off?

Exactly.


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[NapalmCheese]

They got what they got and what they got was a hodgepodge. So, the only way to safely train new pistol soldiers was "be safe, don't shoot yourself and for gods sake don't run around with a round in the chamber, you'll shoot yourself or someone else.

To expound on this, because they had a hodgepodge of pistols the 'Israeli draw' is a lowest common denominator among semi-auto pistols.

Everyone carries condition 3. Every pistol can be charged by racking the slide. Every pistol is safe to carry in condition 3. No worries about safeties, cocked and locked, DA/SA, etc.

[omgwtfbbq]

Pretty much the only thing I would consider training from the video is maybe the dropping to a knee to reload. It makes sense to me to offset from the target when you do a reload without cover, and of course moving both vertically and horizontally where possible makes sense. The rest of it poses more questions/problems than I think it answers/solves.

Here are a few of my observations:
1) The presentation of the body to the target. This is somewhat of a debatable issue even in US training. For Military/LE, this makes a little more sense because of the use of body armor, but for personal defense for a citizen or off-duty Mil/LEO, who is most likely not using body armor, this seems unnecessary. Presenting such a large target to an attack that is likely not very far away at all seems like an oversight.

2) The Elbows-Up, chin-indexing the handgun thing just seems wacky to me. The instructor explained that it's more advantageous that Modern Isosceles (MI) or Weaver Stance (WS) because its better for confined spaces such as vehicles.... How does something that takes up more space help in confined spaces? I'm not following here. Additionally, the instructor explains that it's helpful for "clearing away obstacles" during the draw. I'm not even sure what that means?

3) Continuing on with the draw method, there is some merit to the instructors comment about MI and WS lending itself to new shooters "Fishing" or "cCsting", where they bring the muzzle down onto the target rather than punching straight out to it. However, this is easily trainable without having to resort to the Elbows-up method that seems all kinds of awkward.

4) Not carrying a round in the chamber. Call it Condition 0, Condition 1, Condition Red, or whatever you want, this issue is probably the most beaten horse in the history of defensive carry tactics. To date, I'm still waiting for a convincing argument for not carrying the greatest amount of ammo in your weapon possible at all times. That being said, you do you, boo boo.


It's interesting to see how other people are doing things. Thanks OP for the discussion topic.

[Blade Gunner]

Israeli Draw for Condition 3

As I prefer DA/SA I keep things in condition 2. It's a trade off between safety and effectiveness. The DA pull requires more pratice, but you can always manually cock the hammer, which is no more difficult that racking a round or dropping a safety. If you're in a high stress situation, and forget or fumble doing any of these, a DA/SA gun will still fire.

[NapalmCheese]

1) The presentation of the body to the target. This is somewhat of a debatable issue even in US training. For Military/LE, this makes a little more sense because of the use of body armor, but for personal defense for a citizen or off-duty Mil/LEO, who is most likely not using body armor, this seems unnecessary. Presenting such a large target to an attack that is likely not very far away at all seems like an oversight.

I'm not a gunfighter so take this as you will but one reason for presenting to your target this way instead of bladed is that if you get shot in the chest there's a greater chance of only getting shot in one lung instead of both. If you are bladed to your target and get shot there's a better chance of taking a double lunger. Animals with a working lung and a working diaphragm can live for a good long while. Animals with one working lung and a perforated diaphragm don't live long at all. Animals with zero working lungs die.

Ultimately if you are bladed the chances of your getting shot are statistically reduced (because of reduced target area), but the likelihood of getting mortally wounded increases (so I guess).

[IVC]

As I prefer DA/SA I keep things in condition 2.

I'm not sure it would qualify as "condition 2" - you don't have to cock the hammer to fire. The first shot is technically no different than, e.g., Glock, which people call "DA." We might be running into semantics here, though.

[KahrMan]

I can almost envision using this wonderful technique in a cowboy style quick draw shoot out... NOT. lol
It would make watching old westerns really funny....think about it.

[omgwtfbbq]

I'm not a gunfighter so take this as you will but one reason for presenting to your target this way instead of bladed is that if you get shot in the chest there's a greater chance of only getting shot in one lung instead of both. If you are bladed to your target and get shot there's a better chance of taking a double lunger. Animals with a working lung and a working diaphragm can live for a good long while. Animals with one working lung and a perforated diaphragm don't live long at all. Animals with zero working lungs die.

Ultimately if you are bladed the chances of your getting shot are statistically reduced (because of reduced target area), but the likelihood of getting mortally wounded increases (so I guess).

What you're speculating may well be true. I'm probably no better authority than the next dude.

To be fair, I probably should have defined my stance better in my other post. I'm not saying the best stance is to blade yourself all 1970s cop movies or 1700s dueling style. It's just my immediate reaction that if you give the attacker a bigger target, you're likely increasing his/her ability to hit you.

[ElvenSoul]

What you're speculating may well be true. I'm probably no better authority than the next dude.

To be fair, I probably should have defined my stance better in my other post. I'm not saying the best stance is to blade yourself all 1970s cop movies or 1700s dueling style. It's just my immediate reaction that if you give the attacker a bigger target, you're likely increasing his/her ability to hit you.

Unless your wearing body armor. Mostly set up front and back. The major weakness being the arm pit area.

[NapalmCheese]

Unless your wearing body armor. Mostly set up front and back. The major weakness being the arm pit area.

That was part of his conjecture in post #34, the point being, why make yourself a bigger target by using the modern isosceles stance if you are NOT wearing body armor?

[tsnoforn]

To expound on this, because they had a hodgepodge of pistols the 'Israeli draw' is a lowest common denominator among semi-auto pistols.



Everyone carries condition 3. Every pistol can be charged by racking the slide. Every pistol is safe to carry in condition 3. No worries about safeties, cocked and locked, DA/SA, etc.

Yup, even though they eventually standardized to the Hi-Power (the best darn pistol ever made). They stuck with what works. I think they use glock now... and still carry condition 3... obviously without much harm to combat readiness.


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[dieselpower]

this has been shown to be mostly BS. You do as you train to do. The wide stance is a position only useful if you are not moving and shooting at a target that is not moving and shooting at you.

In a running gun fight your corpse is going to have a pocket of empty brass.

few here will understand that sad training joke and its very sad and not a joke.