DMV punched a hole in my DL

[PyroFox79]

Many moons ago I was refused entry to a bar due to an expired DL . I was maybe 22 and went off on the bouncer mostly because I was with a work party and was very embarrassed which didn't help me look any better . To this day I think that's BS x100 . Some how I'm not 22 anymore because my DL is expired ??? Yea what ever !!

Oh wait CA has another STUPID law . My truck passed the emissions part of the smog test but the check engine lights on so they failed me , WTF is that about ?? Either I'm polluting the air or I'm not , What does a light on my dashboard have to do with that .

Whats even dumber is when you cant use your military ID to get into bars. Yea I dealt with that one a few times.

[BennyAdeline]

Why would this be a concern to ABC?

Does someone suddenly lose 5 years when a hole is punched in their CDL? If so, someone punch mine a few times

Firearms purchases I can understand because in addition to identification it is also proof of residence...
But if it has a hole punched, then it obviously was not revoked/suspended (would have been confiscated), and that hole doesn't change a person's age or identity.

I know... you don't make the rules.
But questions to ask at the next class

Hey friend,

Sorry for the late reply.

So in CA, two conditions must be met to legally serve someone alcohol

1) They must be 21 or older.
2) They must have a valid ID that proves that fact.

If someone is obviously of age, we don't have to card them at our own discretion and risk. And my bar, we set the rule at "Do they look younger than 30?". If so, we card them.

If they have an expired ID, we cannot serve them, even if they are over 21. It would be against the law. If I for some reason carded a 90 year old man and it was expired, I would technically be breaking the law by giving him alcohol. Condition 2 is the part that most people fail to understand.

The CDL with a hole is a common issue. Basically, when an ID is destroyed (hole) in any manner, it does not exist. We cannot legally use it to determine identity or age in any way. It cannot be part of the process.

We are also not allowed to accept any paper identification, so when they show us the DMV slip, we have to point out on the paper where it states "this does not establish identity for public benefits". It's a bummer but also the law. ABC runs stings with this exact scenario.

The paper ID explicitly states it can only be used to legally drive.

It's dumb that the DMV makes it so people waiting on a CDL are impossible to serve alcohol too, but with my livelihood on the line, I choose to enforce their rules to the T.

[AceGirlsHusband]

Last time I took an expired DL to DMV, the agent threw it on the floor and tried to take a leak on it. My feelings were exceptionally hurt... especially when I had to take both written tests again.

[onelonehorseman]

2 weeks ago I PPT'd a rifle at my LGS, but the address on my license wasn't my current address. They let me fill out the PPT paperwork using a current utility bill. In the meantime, I went to the dmv to get a new license with current address and they punched a hole in it. I tried to pick up my gun the other day, but they would not let me with the hole punched license along with my temporary paper ID. Bummer! Hurry up dmv! Mail me my license!

I hope you get your new license before final pick-up date or you will have to re-DROS

[Mitch]

Many moons ago I was refused entry to a bar due to an expired DL . I was maybe 22 and went off on the bouncer mostly because I was with a work party and was very embarrassed which didn't help me look any better . To this day I think that's BS x100 . Some how I'm not 22 anymore because my DL is expired ??? Yea what ever !!

I understand your logic, but what part of "valid ID" do you not understand? The bars are required by law to demand a valid ID.

When any bar weighs their liquor license against your embarrassment, you will come up short every time. The solution is not to allow your ID to expire.

[Metal God]

but what part of "valid ID" do you not understand?

lol , I understand the law completely . How does that make it a smart logical law ? Maybe instead of saying what the law is you can explain the purpose of the law . Why is a valid ID needed to prove my age . It proved my age yesterday why not today ?

There's likely a reason they put the valid part on the books . I just don't see a good reason for it . Other then someone trying to use a 30yr old expired DL for ID . There should/could be exceptions to that law .

I'm a contractor and I have clients all the time asking about codes and they often start out thinking many of them are stupid . After I explain the reasons for the specific codes the light bulb often goes on and they get it . The valid ID thing , I just don't completely get the reasoning behind it as far as age goes .

AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ON MY CHECK ENGINE LIGHT !!!!!

[titan2]

I've renewed my D/L here in Sacramento several times and never had the old one PUNCHED!!!

[FireCloud9]

CDL and CCW is all you need.

I didn't want to bother arguing with them. Not like I was going to be leaving with the firearm that day.

Three different clerks, three different answers. I wouldn't even mind the wrong answer as much as long as all three were consistent.

Once I find a Ruger LC9s Pro, I'm pretty much done buying firearms in CA anyway.

[Mitch]

lol , I understand the law completely . How does that make it a smart logical law ? Maybe instead of saying what the law is you can explain the purpose of the law . Why is a valid ID needed to prove my age . It proved my age yesterday why not today ?

Are you suggesting the law should allow invalid IDs to be used as proof? How about forgeries?

[FireCloud9]

Hey friend,

Sorry for the late reply.

So in CA, two conditions must be met to legally serve someone alcohol

1) They must be 21 or older.
2) They must have a valid ID that proves that fact.

If someone is obviously of age, we don't have to card them at our own discretion and risk. And my bar, we set the rule at "Do they look younger than 30?". If so, we card them.

If they have an expired ID, we cannot serve them, even if they are over 21. It would be against the law. If I for some reason carded a 90 year old man and it was expired, I would technically be breaking the law by giving him alcohol. Condition 2 is the part that most people fail to understand.

My comment is not directed against you personally Benny.

But I hope you do see the ridiculousness of the above situation.

I'm in my 50s, gray hair - whatever is left of it. And so tired of the stupidity that the last two times I was asked for ID (both times for a single beer) once at a bar, the other at the supermarket. I just said nevermind and walked away.

It's not the effort of reaching into my wallet for CDL, but the principle. If the behemoth alcohol companies aren't willing to work on behalf of the consumer, why reward them with business.

[Mitch]

I'm in my 50s, gray hair - whatever is left of it. And so tired of the stupidity that the last two times I was asked for ID (both times for a single beer) once at a bar, the other at the supermarket. I just said nevermind and walked away.

I've been carded twice in my life, once on my 27th birthday and once a few years ago when I was about 48.

I happily handed over my ID because I wanted my beer.

It's not the effort of reaching into my wallet for CDL, but the principle. If the behemoth alcohol companies aren't willing to work on behalf of the consumer, why reward them with business.

This has nothing to do with behemoth alcohol companies, it's about bars and clubs and stores that in many cases have CUPs and in all cases have beer or liquor licenses that can be revoked at any moment, and so they are highly vulnerable at all times.

I am mystified how folks can demand that other people and companies risk their very existence - their incomes, their families, their retirement - for some trivial chicken**** reason when the real answer is simple: keep your ID current. I've been managing this myself for over three decades and it really is not hard to do.

[FireCloud9]

Are you suggesting the law should allow invalid IDs to be used as proof? How about forgeries?

I'm suggesting not having to show ID AT ALL if one is obviously above 30.

Sure there is the rare exception of people that may be 30 and look 19, but carding 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 year olds is ridiculous.

It has absolutely no benefit for society or the consumer. But people get so accustomed to just doing what they're told, no matter how ridiculous that noone even stops to think anymore.

[Metal God]

Are you suggesting the law should allow invalid IDs to be used as proof?

yes

How about forgeries?

no , and I see what your trying to do there . I'm not buying it , I said there should be "exceptions" . That would not be one of them .

So you're they type that feels laws should not be questioned . Fine there are those out there that think that way . I better not see you over in the legal sub forum complaining about the gun laws .

Do you have an answer as to why a once "valid" ID with a hole punched in it is no longer good enough to prove age ??? It's not like age can change like weight , hair color , vision , address etc . Please give a reasonable explanation as to why your ID is not a reasonable way of determining your age weather expired or not .

FWIW the question is not being snarky . I'm open to the fact there is a good reason why they don't allow the expired DL as proof of age . I'm just not seeing it .

[Mitch]

Do you have an answer as to why a once "valid" ID with a hole punched in it is no longer good enough to prove age ??? It's not like age can change like weight , hair color , vision , address etc . Please give a reasonable explanation as to why your ID is not a reasonable way of determining your age weather expired or not .

FWIW the question is not being snarky . I'm open to the fact there is a good reason why they don't allow the expired DL as proof of age . I'm just not seeing it .

The answer is because laws are generally supposed to be drafted so they are unambiguous.

Here is Section 25660 of the California Business and Professions Code:

(a) Bona fide evidence of majority and identity of the person is any of the following:

(1) A document issued by a federal, state, county, or municipal government, or subdivision or agency thereof, including, but not limited to, a valid motor vehicle operator's license, that contains the name, date of birth, description, and picture of the person.

(2) A valid passport issued by the United States or by a foreign government.

(3) A valid identification card issued to a member of the Armed Forces that includes a date of birth and a picture of the person.

(b) Proof that the defendant-licensee, or his or her employee or agent, demanded, was shown, and acted in reliance upon bona fide evidence in any transaction, employment, use, or permission forbidden by Section 25658, 25663, or 25665 shall be a defense to any criminal prosecution therefor or to any proceedings for the suspension or revocation of any license based thereon.

If you were God, how would you rewrite that section to ensure that people who can't be bothered to keep their IDs up to date are not ensnared by the regulations?

[FireCloud9]

Always get a Ca ID card when you get your license. For just such occasions.

Doesn't DMV charge additional fees for CA ID card? Sounds like a good racket.

Maybe next year some lawmaker reading this thread can propose that:

1. DMV issue CDL for driving only.
2. DMV issue a CA ID for proof of address (lets make that one expire annually on our birthdays so they can generate more fees for the state). Never know, one might move in the 4 year time frame between CDLs
3. DMV issue a CA ID for proof of age for alcohol purchases only.
4. DMV issue a CA ID for firearm purchases only.

With enough ideas, we could generate a ton of fees for the state.

perhaps you should have actually handed that clerk your CCW license and used that as your Proof of Residency. and, perhaps the clerk wasn't being nosy so he didn't focus on the fact that you had a CCW exposed in your wallet (has that clerk even seen a CCW from your county/city before?) and that you were FSC-exempt and SHD-exempt. why even have an FSC if you are already FSC-exempt, unless you got your CCW after you got the FSC?

See, you figured it out without having to be told.

Arizona allows you to purchase firearms with a paper temporary license. It also has your photo on it.

What is this logic thing you speak of? Some Californians have been here so long that they no longer question anything - they just comply.

When I moved to Utah they issued me a temporary paper license with my photo on it.. And they punched a hole in my California license... I was thrilled..

Oh my, what a concept! First AZ and now UT! We have to stop this logic thing before it reaches CA!!

2 weeks ago I PPT'd a rifle at my LGS, but the address on my license wasn't my current address. They let me fill out the PPT paperwork using a current utility bill. In the meantime, I went to the dmv to get a new license with current address and they punched a hole in it. I tried to pick up my gun the other day, but they would not let me with the hole punched license along with my temporary paper ID. Bummer! Hurry up dmv! Mail me my license!

Out of curiosity, was that a complete recent utility bill or had you ripped of the portion used to pay the bill?

Whats even dumber is when you cant use your military ID to get into bars. Yea I dealt with that one a few times.

My first thought was that you can be 18 with military ID and drinking age is 21... I have got to get out of California....I'm starting to get infected.

I hope you get your new license before final pick-up date or you will have to re-DROS

That would be a bummer.

lol , I understand the law completely . How does that make it a smart logical law ? Maybe instead of saying what the law is you can explain the purpose of the law. Why is a valid ID needed to prove my age . It proved my age yesterday why not today ?

There's likely a reason they put the valid part on the books . I just don't see a good reason for it . Other then someone trying to use a 30yr old expired DL for ID . There should/could be exceptions to that law .

Logic and purpose? People might start thinking instead of just complying. We can't have that. Who knows what horrors may come of turning automatons into thinking human beings?

I've been carded twice in my life, once on my 27th birthday and once a few years ago when I was about 48.

I happily handed over my ID because I wanted my beer.

This has nothing to do with behemoth alcohol companies, it's about bars and clubs and stores that in many cases have CUPs and in all cases have beer or liquor licenses that can be revoked at any moment, and so they are highly vulnerable at all times.

I am mystified how folks can demand that other people and companies risk their very existence - their incomes, their families, their retirement - for some trivial chicken**** reason when the real answer is simple: keep your ID current. I've been managing this myself for over three decades and it really is not hard to do.

Yeah, I'm not that much of a beer drinker, so I can take it or leave it.

The alcohol companies are the ones that stand to leave money on the table. And your point about the bars, clubs and stores being highly vulnerable is all the more reason for them to push back against aspects of laws that serve no value and costs them business.

I'm just as mystified as to how compliant people are to not even question the stupidity of a law that has a business carding people in their 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s and beyond!

It has zero to do with keeping ID current. On both occasions that I walked away I had current ID on me. It's the stupidity of a law (and boy are there a lot of those - just google stupid laws).

When I walked out of the bar, I went to the restaurant next door. Ordered an appetizer and a beer and magically I wasn't carded.

Oh the horror! I mean if all 50+ year olds start ordering a beer without being carded who knows the horrors that will befall our society!

yes

no , and I see what your trying to do there . I'm not buying it , I said there should be "exceptions" . That would not be one of them .

So you're they type that feels laws should not be questioned . Fine there are those out there that think that way . I better not see you over in the legal sub forum complaining about the gun laws .

Do you have an answer as to why a once "valid" ID with a hole punched in it is no longer good enough to prove age ??? It's not like age can change like weight , hair color , vision , address etc . Please give a reasonable explanation as to why your ID is not a reasonable way of determining your age weather expired or not .

:Yes:

It's interesting to see 2A advocates that complain about gun laws when those laws don't make sense, but are totally complaint with the law in all other respects going so far as to not even question it.

How ironic that the 2A wouldn't exist if it weren't for Founding Fathers who did question the laws/rules they lived under.

Of all the places I've ever lived, Californians (specially those that were born here or lived here their whole lives or 20+ years) are the most compliant and least questioning I've ever encountered - it's as if thinking or questioning is forbidden here.

People that blindly follow the law and don't question it are scary and don't know their history.

Laws are just one one leg of the stool. Morality / Integrity, Justice, Freedom are other legs that make for a strong foundation.

People that rely on the law unquestioningly are the same ones that would own slaves before abolition because they base no part of their actions on morality.

The same ones that remain silent when the rights of others are not equal to theirs as in the Civil Rights movement because they base no part of their actions or inactions on justice.

The same ones that through their actions / inactions condone bad policy by their silence, compliance, malleability, unquestioning submission, and passive obedience thereby allowing the erosion of freedom.

For some reason they'll go across town to save a nickel based on principle and rewarding good business while punishing bad business, but readily participate in the erosion of their own freedom and that of their fellow man by readily rewarding bad government policy / law through passive, submissive, unquestioning compliance.